Update from broker and I’m not much wiser. The 8130-3 certificates are on the way, will be interesting to see when the last full overhaul was done.
Question:
On the EASA FORM 1 of the Engine in Box 11 it says „repaired“. Was this a factory overhaul that zero timed the engine (important for commercial use)?
Answer:
STATUS REPAIRED MEAN THAT ENGINE HAS NEW 12 YEARS but hours are the same like before overhaule
Question:
Why is the engine time limit 25 years (2039), that is unusual? Continental lists the TSIO-520-M as TBO 1600 hours max.12 years (1400 for engine S/N < 1006000).
Answer:
NORMAL is 12 year, but under Austrian CAA you can extended for 24 years
So I assume the engine was not overhauled, only repaired, and while the calendar limit was reset the hourly limit was not, essentially meaning the engine will be operated over its hourly TBO limit?
How much is a full overhaul of a tsio 520 (all and everything until I can turn the key on the new engine)?
Can you get a copy of the “Repair” worksheet, which will be in the log?
Telling you what was replaced.
I will ask for it, thanks!
I guess these are the items that were replaced, thus the “0” hours TSO remarks on the right?!
If you would mention the shop that did the engine overhaul you would be able to get solid feedback from the community.
Average airplane buyers seem to be obsessed about low time engines without asking too many questions about the quality of the overhaul.
Good that you do ask the necessary questions, however even better would be to buy a used plane with a high time engine and being in control of the work done on your engine.
Thank you for the good advice @cessnatraveller.
Snoopy wrote:
Answer:
STATUS REPAIRED MEAN THAT ENGINE HAS NEW 12 YEARS but hours are the same like before overhaule
This looks like a field overhaul, which resets the 12 year and hour TBO but not the total time of the engine, needs absolutely to be verified though. I am not aware of any mechanism which would only reset the 12 years but not the TBO.
The extensions to 24 calendar years provided the hours are within TBO plus possible extentions are possible, but “you can expect” is hardly a safe assumption…
Mooney_Driver wrote:
This looks like a field overhaul, which resets the 12 year and hour TBO but not the total time of the engine, needs absolutely to be verified though. I am not aware of any mechanism which would only reset the 12 years but not the TBO.
Learning something new everyday, thanks!
Just to confirm: “which resets the 12 year and hour TBO but not the total time of the engine” = calendar time now again 12 years and next overhaul in 1400 hours?
“I am not aware of any mechanism which would only reset the 12 years but not the TBO” = in response to what I said “So I assume the engine was not overhauled, only repaired, and while the calendar limit was reset the hourly limit was not, essentially meaning the engine will be operated over its hourly TBO limit?” which was wrong because indeed the calendar tbo and hour tbo is reset but the engine is not zero timed like a “factory overhaul” or however that’s called, correct?
Reading the logbook entry and not trying to extend beyond it, the work done was a top overhaul at about 1236 hr time in service, meaning the cylinders were removed and reworked. Also the mags were overhauled, the alternator overhauled and fuel (?) pump overhauled. These specific accessory items are therefore at 0 hours since overhaul, not the engine which would not need to be removed to perform any of the work listed.
It might be useful to get the records on the cylinder work, what cylinder parts were replaced and who did the work. It could be anything, by anybody.
There is no indication in the posted logbook entry of a major engine overhaul. I would not on the basis of this logbook entry add much value to the plane over that of a plane without this work done, a top overhaul is just maintenance between major overhauls, very often done at about 1200 hrs. The broker appears to be playing games in his communication: If the bottom end has not been overhauled, as per the posted logbook entry, it is unreasonable to advertise that the engine will run another full overhaul cycle because that would then put the bottom end at something like 3000 hrs SMOH. At this point I would go ONLY on what’s documented in the logs and dismiss any unsubstantiated statements by the salesman.
Games or not, there is no report of when the last complete OH was done. This is key information for commercial ops. Perhaps Austria allow commercial ops of piston engines up to 12+24 years? That would be useful info.
As to the top-end (cylinders) and accessories I assume they will be reasonably good due to the recent top OH. Italian shop reputation pdg verification. My main worry would be finding out if they installed new or OH’d cyls and the source . The other main concern would be how well they did the cylinder installation, but after over 100hrs (is that the case?) any major issues would have shown up already. Cyls and accessories (incl airframe-side, like turbo, exhaust and controller) will be verified with an engine run+high-alt flight + oil consumption and standard compression checks, so easy enough if your inspector uses the Service Manual critical altitude check guidelines.
For non-commercial ops, I would still want to verify the condition of the bottom end (especially camshaft+lifters) after such a presumably long time since OH and/or reflect that in the value. If the camshaft and tappets are in good condition then I would feel safe on this bottom end regardless of calendar time since OH. I would assume the VAR crankshaft was installed at some time in the past since AD’s are current. Best way to find out on the camshaft and lifters is via:
If the first two items are good, even if the latter shows some light spalling on the lifters, as long as the camshaft is good I would not call that a problem: simply ask to remove all the lifters, inspect all the cam lobes via lifter holes, and if all lobes are good, replace any bad lifters.
If all the above is good and there is nothing obviously wrong then you have a good engine for non-commercial ops regardless of calendar time since OH..
Getting back at some past posts:
Antonio wrote:
In order to help I have run a Vref (a US market aircraft value reference) on the aircraft putting zero value on the recent maintenance which is worth easily over EUR75k if done at one of the good EU shops, and the result is $217k or about eur190k.
As an additional value that you cannot see on Vref, the fresh engine OH was done only three years ago which may not be a premium in the US, but is very valuable in EU, especially if you put it to commercial use, which restricts calendar TBO.
So the engine was not overhauled to zero but “field overhauled” resetting the calendar and hours TBO. The engine total time continues to count. . .
Now obviously it’s not the owners problem what will be done (commercially) with the plane by whoever purchases it, but do you think the “field overhaul” is already considered in the asking price?
Antonio wrote:
-If you are looking at high-alt & long-range missions then the P210 will be a better airplane with little extra cost (*i’ll try to post more on that when I have a chance)
Antonio wrote:
The 8th seat should be of high-value: you need to find if the owner still keeps it or perhaps this option was never approved or installed on this particular serial number?
Antonio wrote:
It has no deice: this limits IFR use. As a minimum I would want propeller anti-ice.
Antonio wrote:
Bring your GOLZE along if you are serious about flying IFR in this bird: it seems to carry no onboard wx
Antonio wrote:
you don’t owe me one even if you end up buying, but please pay me a visit in Mallorca and I’ll buy you one and we’ll go for a flight
Antonio wrote:
Rarity and the attendant scarcity of type-specific parts.On the plus a big part of the items should be common with the ubiquitous 206
cessnatraveller wrote:
It is easy to find out if someone just did a cheap job or if everything has been done diligently.
Peter wrote:
With avionics it is much harder; nearly all people one might get to do a prebuy know nothing about avionics.
Back to the newer threads:
Silvaire wrote:
I would not on the basis of this logbook entry add much value to the plane over that of a plane without this work done, a top overhaul is just maintenance between major overhauls
Silvaire wrote:
The broker appears to be playing games in his communication
Antonio wrote:
Antonio wrote:
This is key information for commercial ops. Perhaps Austria allow commercial ops of piston engines up to 12+24 years? That would be useful info.
Antonio wrote:
but after over 100hrs (is that the case?)
This is a bit misleading… instead of TSO it should say “Since last repair/top overhaul” etc…
But yes, it has been run over 100 hours since the work was performed.
Antonio wrote:
will be verified with an engine run+high-alt flight + oil consumption and standard compression checks, so easy enough if your inspector uses the Service Manual critical altitude check guidelinesNoted this if it comes to a prebuy.
Antonio wrote:
If all the above is good and there is nothing obviously wrong then you have a good engine for non-commercial ops regardless of calendar time since OH..I read up on Continental engines (documents going back to when this plane was produced) and the overall summary is that honoring Continentals Maintenance instructions and intervals is the best thing long term. Now of course, Conti would be stupid to suggest anything else. Apart from that, my conclusion after reading these files, was that it makes sense to abide by their recommendations.
Found this on Aopa https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2016/october/12/aircraft-maintenance-tackling-top-overhaul-decisions
It basically says that a “top overhaul” is not an overhaul, but simply a repair.
Keeping the total time of the engine “counting” while resetting hour/calendar TBO via a repair? Isn’t that a contradiction?
