Menu Sign In Contact FAQ
Banner
Welcome to our forums

Backup battery dead -> engine stops

Well Udo, I’m not sure about @Steve6443 ride… but my guess is that it has got no magnetos, but runs a dual electronic ignition system, fully battery dependent.
In the homebuilt uncertified world, we like to… experiment
Around my place, there’s barely a magneto equipped homebuilt left…

A quick recap of combustion engine ignition systems, as available today to non-certifieds:

  • good old magneto(s), self powered, don’t need any power from any battery (example, the good old J3 Piper Cub, hand prop, and off you go)
  • an electronic system fed by a power source (not redundant in itself, so needs at least one back-up source)
  • an electronic system with integral back-up (e.g. E- or P-Mags). The primary power source is external, but they do revert to a built-in internal generator in case of loss of the primary power. When this happens, a minimum of 900RPM is required for the internal generator to work
  • and the crème de la crème, bringing the utmost efficiency, a full dual electronic ignition with a fully electronic injection system (FlyEFII and SDS)

These systems can be combined, and yes, the fully digital ones do require a solid electrical architecture.

Dan
ain't the Destination, but the Journey
LSZF, Switzerland

UdoR wrote:

Aren’t there magnetos to keep the engine running?

Some aircraft have an “electronic ignition”, like what you have in your auto. These devices require a source of electrical power. When that stops, so does the engine.

Fly more.
LSGY, Switzerland

What happened to the EI which has its own generator. Not certified- here. This is totally bloody simple stuff… a small alternator in the magneto drive point.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

boscomantico wrote:

And never [magnetos] in any Rotax-powered aircraft.

But at least in certified carburetted Rotax engines the electronic ignition modules are self-powered by generators, so for the point of view of redundancy it could just as well have been magnetos.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

My aircraft is not certified, is powered by a Rotax 912iS engine – ie fuel injected, twin ECU for control. Means highly efficient, there is no red lever as you climb, the aircraft leans itself. At 2000 ft MSL at Eco settings, I am burning 17 liters per hour, at 10000 feet I‘m burning 13 – no red knob anywhere to be seen – and all on Super 95 Octane.

However the engine NEEDS electrical power to run hence the system has a main and a backup battery. The aircraft only has a single alternator charging both so with a failed backup battery, I am down to a single point of failure which could stop the engine – if the alternator failed, then (eventually) I would have no engine power. The question is – how good is my alternator, how good is my main battery?

Can you tell that at a glance from within the cockpit? Yes, for that moment in time. But you can’t say what will happen in the next moment or two, hence I decided to return and land. Perhaps the certified 912iS is different but my aircraft isn’t. And my wallet thanks me for that

Last Edited by Steve6443 at 11 Dec 11:13
EDL*, Germany

Dan wrote:

good old magneto(s), self powered, don’t need any power from any battery (example, the good old J3 Piper Cub, hand prop, and off you go)

And there´s not only one self contained magneto there´s as you say two of them, and the airplane can fly on a single one (not dispatch (legally!).
Each type of aircraft category comes with its pluses and minuses!

Socata Rally MS.893E
Portugal

But at least in certified carburetted Rotax engines the electronic ignition modules are self-powered by generators, so for the point of view of redundancy it could just as well have been magnetos.

Must be the same for non-certified carburetted Rotaxes.

Indeed many variations between electrical installations of aircraft. The certified Bristell (carburetted 912 version) has two alternators, a battery and a back-up battery. The latter is only meant to power some of the avionics and glareshield though. And then the AI back-up instrument has its own back-up battery..

Last Edited by aart at 11 Dec 13:25
Private field, Mallorca, Spain

Most Rotaxes (those not of the “i” variant) use CDI. It’s not a magneto, but works without battery. It’s what’s found in many small high revving engines. Simple and reliable.

Certified Rotaxes usually have two (or even 3) generators. Two are built into the original generator in the “i” versions (separate windings and regulators) supplying separate ECUs, while a completely separate generator (auto variant) are mounted running of the prop shaft.

Even for the non certified iS, both generators and the battery have to be dead before the engine quits. I guess it’s up to the aircraft manufacturer to decide if the third/second additional generator shall be installed.

What’s best. An additional generator, or additional battery? A non solvable conundrum it seems An extra battery is definitely much easier than incorporating an additional generator.

The elephant is the circulation
ENVA ENOP ENMO, Norway

Yeager wrote:

Each type of aircraft category comes with its pluses and minuses!

Absolutely, but frankly I don’t see any advantage of traditional magnetos vs self powered eletronic ignition . As long as the engine would make 800+ RPM the sparks would fire. Nothing else needed.

LeSving wrote:

What’s best. An additional generator, or additional battery? A non solvable conundrum it seems An extra battery is definitely much easier than incorporating an additional generator.

Best architecture is the one which in case of a component failure would assure uninterrupted engine operation and at the same time would’n require any action from the pilot.

Poland

There’s a thing or two about failure modes that’s important too I would say.

The elephant is the circulation
ENVA ENOP ENMO, Norway
20 Posts
Sign in to add your message

Back to Top