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Cessna 400 TTx deliveries started (and production ends)

No toes stepped on here :-) (thanks for the thought)

Phew! :-)

What I meant about useful tools, is being able to use them for training, renting, IFR perhaps even all-weather capable etc, as business tools. Yes, you can have all the gear on an Experimental, but hanging out in icing conditions in an aircraft that wasn't tested, with equipment that wasn't tested, and with handling that you don't know anything about makes you a test pilot. I think I'll pass...

In my mind you can't really compare a certified DA42, SR22 or TTx with an RV10 or Lancair IV in terms of usefulness as a tool due to restrictions placed on Experimentals, and all the unknowns above. So, perhaps the US is more lax, and so is Sweden, but there are differences nonetheless.

Sure, you can take an Experimental aircraft around the globe if you like and have the time for it. I have a friend who flew his Glasair II to Oshkosh from Sweden, no problem.

ESSB, Stockholm Bromma

Krister,

Not to go on too much (!) :-) but just to clarify, experimentals like RVs and the Lancair IV have no restrictions placed on their use in the US except use for hire. They are flown by their owners for anything, including IFR. There is a tremendous amount of accumulated experience with RVs in particular, and probably the only real experimentation that's done on most of them is with unique combinations of uncertified avionics.

That said, North America is about like Europe in that about half of it has a much milder winter - so I doubt a great proportion of experimentals are being flown hard IFR in cold climates. Some are, im sure, but not a lot.

The use for hire thing is not much of an issue be because its a flying scene based almost completely on aircraft in sole ownership.

Yeah, let's not get carried away. So, the simple answer to the TTx question is that it doesn't really have a market, in the US, and is not well known in the rest of the world so won't succeed there either.

At $700k you can find a pressurized single piston, or turbine, that is far more capable for touring.

ESSB, Stockholm Bromma

How far did Cessna get with the electric de-icing?

That was to be offered on the C400.

Lancair experimented with it in its late days of the certified range ownership. I recall hearing from the "briefly UK dealer", Air Touring, that the system suffered from local overheating and consequent damage to the composite material, but that the manufacturer disputed that and claimed some of the heating elements had been incorrectly wired. The system used a large dedicated alternator; something like 50V 70A.

If it worked, it would have been great and much cleaner than TKS.

However it would possibly not have dealt with the "runback freezing" issue. On jets, heated leading edges are hot enough to vapourise the water so there is no runback. The Lancair system would have been only warm.

I am struggling to find a unique selling point for this plane, over a similarly equipped and perhaps very slightly cheaper SR22. Cessna seem to think the market is the same, because the ads they ran last year depicted exactly the same type of customer i.e. a good looking businessman (with very good hair) using it to visit 3 customers in one day all over the USA - which we all know is wishful thinking in that type of plane.

At $700k you can find a pressurized single piston, or turbine, that is far more capable for touring.

You could get a OK-ish Jetprop, which will totally outclass any piston plane for A-B travelling, but I don't think that is relevant in that market, where the customers are new to aviation, know next to nothing about how aircraft capability maps onto weather, and believe the plane=car marketing. They don't want a 1960s PA46, for example. They want something with nice curves, with the cabin designed by BMW or whatever.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

1960s PA46, for example.

What 1960s PA-46?

EGTK Oxford

C'mon Peter, you know that the Malibu came out as a 1983 model in it's first year...

That's exactly the point. Cessna is targeting the SR22 buyers, fresh out from pilot training but as I said in my list of SR22 selling points, they have the parachute, and all the stuff that makes flying so simple (if you're new to this and have fair hair).

Buyers of a TTx are more likely to be Mooney customers, in which case they're better off with a slightly used Jetprop or Meridian.

ESSB, Stockholm Bromma

How far did Cessna get with the electric de-icing?

The first thing Cessna did after the acquisition of Columbia was to burry the Thermawings project and switch to TKS.

Cessna is targeting ... Buyers of a TTx are ...

Well, isn't the problem that nobody is buying the 350/400 from Cessna?

My bet for the number of TTxes that will be sold by the end of 2013: less than 25.

The Cessna will never in big numbers. Apart from being expensive, it is also too little "mainstream"'in its design and looks. Too "racy" looking (look at the landing gear).Too poor visibility from inside. It lacks "Raumgefühl", which is hard to translate; something like spaciousness & visibility combined.

Cirrus was clever. Even though it is fast, the SRxx was not designed primarily with maximum speed in mind. It was a compromise. A good one.

Mainz (EDFZ) & Egelsbach (EDFE), Germany

you know that the Malibu came out as a 1983 model in it's first year.

Sure but the basic styling is "1960s GA".

But then it's very hard to get away from that, using aluminium, in low volume builds.

My bet for the number of TTxes that will be sold by the end of 2013: less than 25.

Given the near-zero sales to date, and less than 6 months left, that is virtually certain.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Well, perhaps it's 1960 to an untrained eye, but there are a number of differences. The wing probably being the most distinct development from previous low aspect ratio Clark Y designs. But for the layman perhaps it doesn't look all that different. Then again, do people really want different? What's so different about the Cirrus?

I think the Malibu looks great even today, one of my all time favorites, preferably with the old 520. Iirc, a couple of engineers from Piper built the Questair Venture which featured Malibu engine, wings and tail (scaled down) and a very short 2 seat fuselage optimized for low drag. It was a speedy little package.

How many 300/350/400/Columbia have actually made it out the door in total? Are there any stats?

ESSB, Stockholm Bromma
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