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Departure procedures through cloud (controlled airfields without SIDs)

I did my IR theory and CBIR theory with Mermoz.
I posted what someone else had translated from their own textbooks.

France

I need a serious reference than Mermoz books I mean if you are going to discuss this with some ATC on radio? the issue is not what ‘PIC is supposed to do’ it’s ‘what ATC approves’, I am interested in the latter not the former

Without ATC, things are very trivial, if you ever do CBIR in Blackbushes EGLK which has an AFIS, you should get well versed on IFR takeoff in low visibility and low ceiling without being on procedure when going off-airways (if you go into Class Alpha Blackbushes AFIS or Farnbrough ATC usually assign you one of published standard departures but not always as you may get to talk to Londo Info)

The IFR takeoff is easy: the minima is 500m without AOC: you depart on runway heading at your own discretion, you climb to safe altitude on your altimeter and your remain outside controlled airspace using SkyDemon

The IFR arrival is easy: no published instrument procedure, Farnborough will vector you to final at 1800ft amsl, you fly own min altitude land under IFR or go missed under IFR as published (EGLK has published IFR missed without a published IFR approach, go figure !)

From AIP,

6.Use of Runways

When the RVR is below 500 M, departures are not permitted unless AOC holders have less restrictive authorised take-off minima. Pilots are advised that there is no runway centre-line lighting and departure in RVR conditions of less than 400 M is at the pilot’s discretion. Take-off will not be permitted if the RVR is less than 250 M

3. Missed Approaches

Where remaining within the Blackbushe ATZ is not possible, the following Missed Approach tracks/altitudes are recommended to deconflict against IFR operations within Farnborough CAS. Note these have not been assessed for terrain clearance, and pilots must ensure they adhere to their own terrain clearance requirements and maintain a good lookout within Class G airspace for other aircraft in the vicinity.)

Last Edited by Ibra at 13 Sep 11:12
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

out of curiosity, how would an IFR departure instruction in IMC look like for EGKA?
As an example? Both runways, 02 & 20.

For 20, there are no obstacles unless you are in a twin, one engine out, and doing +100fpm, in which case you will hit the wind turbine farm. But in any normal situation, there is nothing there. In the said twin, I would turn left or right, gently

For 02, there is the 850ft hill, and I would do a left turn, 5 deg roll angle, commencing about 300ft AAL, onto a heading of say 180. At any normal climb rate, loads of clearance. A right turn is also ok but you are closer to the terrain. For the above mentioned OEI twin, I heard one old hand recommend a ~20 deg left turn after takeoff, which takes you up the river valley (a fairly desperate situation, with the buttocks firmly clenched).

There are much worse places elsewhere. For example I would never depart from Aosta unless it was CAVOK all the way to outer space. They don’t need a SID for that to be fairly obvious.

Also, in very low cloud, say OVC001, a departure is legal; it is only the 400m vis which is legally limiting on an IR holder. In reality 400m vis is rather poor because you can see only just enough runway ahead to get airborne in a TB20.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

@Peter, do they (EGKA_APP) actually prescribe the departure route for IMC departure? Or do they just say “join at DVR, not above FLxx, remain outside”?
And what to do with noise abaitment? Or you are still very low for the departure and can perform those visually?
Thanks!

EGTR

And what to do with noise abaitment? 

They don’t apply to IFR on ATC clearance, vector, direct or published route…while on freestyle, you will have to come up with your own case (don’t ask me how I know, I fly at Toussus and I had a chat with one of CEO on my flying without ATS, Chief Environmental Officer)

For the above mentioned OEI twin, I heard one old hand recommend a ~20 deg left turn after takeoff, which takes you up the river valley (a fairly desperate situation, with the buttocks firmly clenched).

That is like RWY02 missed but it will be a***e clenching even with 10km visbility & 1000ft ceiling

There are much worse places elsewhere

Ignoring things near the Alps, look no further,
- Glocs, Dundee with terrain !
- Blackbushes, Fairoaks with airspace !

Last Edited by Ibra at 13 Sep 17:45
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

do they (EGKA_APP) actually prescribe the departure route for IMC departure? Or do they just say “join at DVR, not above FLxx, remain outside”?

The latter. ATC cannot instruct an unpublished procedure. And this is how it should be. Pilots need to use their brain – not just when departing but at all times afterwards ATC can’t stop you doing a CFIT, for example. Especially in a country where non-radio IFR is legal (which is also how it should be – given how hard the European IR is to obtain).

And what to do with noise abaitment? Or you are still very low for the departure and can perform those visually?

On 20 you are supposed to turn right about 10 degrees, right after getting airborne. On 02, no published precautions (nothing there). I wouldn’t worry.

That is like RWY02 missed

A departure from a runway is nothing like going missed (at above the DH, and from the MAP which is even before the runway starts). Going missed is much easier from obstacle clearance POV. One is probably 1000ft higher up.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Indeed, you should not fly 02 missed unless you can climb backward first

Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

I don’t understand.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

You need to go back to the MAPT behind the runway to fly the missed as published it’s not useable for takeoff, same if you bounce on landing you may want to think twice about going missed

Last Edited by Ibra at 13 Sep 18:54
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

That is simply not true. If it were true you could never take off.

@arj1 you can see some EGKA departures here with the GPS altitude shown, so you can judge how much leeway there is.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom
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