I think the bottom line is that it doesn’t matter what you don’t log if you have further need to collect bits of paper.
And an airline pilot will have at least a CPL/IR and the 14 exam passes (a “frozen ATPL”) and now he/she needs to log 1500hrs TT, of which 500hrs has to be in a multi pilot cockpit, and 100hrs of the 1500hrs has to be at night. That total will be reached when it is reached…
Nobody can be logging 737 time as VFR, in Europe. There can’t possibly be (?) any 737 op which flies any VFR. The RAF, maybe.
When I first got my IMCR, I used to log instrument flight time when vmc top, on the basis that i wasn’t VFR (ie in sight of of the surface) and therefore by default, it had to be instrument flight time.
Thats what I have always done, and I continue to do so. In part because I’d like to explore doing a EIR or CBM/IR (depends on location and structure of training) and the numbers might help me. Also because if I am flying in IMC or vmc-on-top or bad VFR conditions then maybe if I have to prove any currency, it might not look so good if I could only demonstrate 2 hours in a year of actual instrument time (so being in IMC).
it does beg the question though, if the definition is correct and it is flight which is in IMC ONLY
I dont think it is “… in IMC ONLY”, it is “instrment flight time” – which can be in VMC in whatever conditions, so long as you are looking at an instrument (might just be a VOR needle if straight and level can be maintained by visual lookout", but that to me is “instrument fligth time” because I couldnt see where I am out of the window and looking at the ground.
so long as you are looking at an instrument (might just be a VOR needle if straight and level can be maintained by visual lookout", but that to me is “instrument fligth time” because I couldnt see where I am out of the window and looking at the ground.
It’s controlling (not navigating) the aircraft by sole reference to instruments that makes it ‘instrument flight time’. I would suggest it’s about whether or not you have a visual attitude reference.
I only ever log ACTUAL or SIMULATED so have no idea how many “IFR” flights I have done. In reality I try to plan all my VFR flights IAW IFR so that if I have to go IFR it is simple. I choose way points and fixes that are in the 430W as well as IFR levels.
I have done plenty of “IFR” flight proper – on an IFR FP – and also on Gin clear days as it is a very good airspace avoidance tool. But for these I never logged any Instrument time. Suppose I should go back through my logbook and mark all the flights for future reference though, but that will be quite a task and I am lazy when it comes to mundane paperwork :D
Personally I log instrument time when in actual IMC – either flying by hand or on autopilot.
My total IT is about 180hrs now, and I’d say more than 100hrs as PIC, which exceeds any requirement I am aware of, so I don’t need to bother with it much anymore. But it took 1700+ hrs TT to accumulate this.
Note that the original EASA CB IR conversion proposal was 100hrs IT as PIC!! A very tall order and obviously designed to make sure very few private pilots would have it. It would have totally killed any point in doing the FAA stuff first.
I rarely do much IT while flying Eurocontrol IFR. On a typical 20hr trip down to Greece one might log 5-10 mins IT. The rest is VMC on top. Most of my IT was logged while hacking around in UK Class G, on my weekly currency flights.
What I would advise people to do is to very diligently log every little bit of IT (in my case in 5 mins multiples, but that doesn’t matter) because
I gather that the EASA implementing rules are due out next week so maybe somebody will be able to answer my earlier questions then. Currently, everybody I know is running around like a headless chicken, and one FTO owner phoned me today asking me what I know.
I log just time in IMC too as I said earlier. Peter, presumably your log book totals are therefore all effectively, VFR? So, going back to my earlier point about airline crews, how do they get away with logging instrument flying time when the vast majority will be in vmc? And more to the point, should they just be logging the same as peter, ie plenty of (effectively) vfr?
My logbook totals are mostly VMC.
Most of the intra-UK flights are VFR (I guess that is the post-departure default in UK Class G?) but
So, going back to my earlier point about airline crews, how do they get away with logging instrument flying time when the vast majority will be in vmc?
They are logging it incorrectly. But nobody cares so long as they pass their 6 monthly LPC…
And more to the point, should they just be logging the same as peter, ie plenty of (effectively) vfr?
They are flying in accordance with IFR (instrument flight rules). The actual wx is irrelevant.
So they could log “IFR time”, which would be pointless because 100% of their time is “IFR time” – because their AOC rules are 100% IFR.
There is no “VFR time” or “IFR time” column in any logbook I have seen. FAA logbooks have a cross country time, and some other stuff.
I’ve always logged IFR – not IMC – time. To me this makes perfect sense.
Certainly, the single most important aspect of IFR flying is the ability to control the aircraft on instruments (otherwise you’ll soon be dead if you enter IMC), but that is not at all the only important aspect. If you are unable to properly do radio navigation and follow IFR procedures you’ll both make a nuisance of yourself and create a real danger of causing collisions with other aircraft or terrain.
How much of IR training is about attitude flying and how much is about procedures? Why does the UK IMC rating and the new EASA EIR rating require less training?
Also… all pilots who say that they log IMC, not IFR time… How do they do that in practise when flying in and out of clouds, climbing/descending through layers etc. The added workload of keeping track of IMC time in a single-pilot environment is something I can do without!
The UK situation is a bit peculiar with its less-than-clear distinction between VFR and IFR in class G airspace but that I think is a problem with the UK system as such.
I’ve always logged IMC time, for the simple reason that all of my logbooks have a column headed “Instrument Flying”. Over the years IMC logged time averages approx 14% of total time. I usually cruise in the FL90-FL120 range and only spend long periods in cloud when crossing frontal systems. It’s really no hassle calculating the time as I fill out my personal loogbook after each flight – so I remember what happened. I’m not obsessive about accuracy, approximate will do.
I log IFR time mainly and also log IF time in my electronic logbook (my paper one has no column for it and I’m not inclined to make one since its generally not required).
I wonder if your Jet2 pilot friend actually means IFR time, in which case it would be correct and is also the way I log it.
Just out of interest, of the ~370 IFR hours I have logged, ~150 of them have been actually IF time. This actually skews the percentage of actual time downwards because (bearing in mind I do some flying in a multi pilot op) I log all flights/sectors as IFR time (when they are IFR so nearly always) but I only log actual time when it is my sector flying because I don’t think it makes sense to log it as a monitoring pilot. Roughly working it out this would mean I have about 200 hours IFR in control and 150 are in actual IMC. THis seems a much higher percentage but is perhaps because my IFR time is largely from commercial no pressurised flying in the UK ie. not above FL100 and always going unless the weather is truly shite.
