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Another crash - Helicopter I-EDIC vs Jodel F-PMGV in Italy

Airborne_Again wrote:

But it’s true that you need at least a flight plan to cross the national border.

Not necessarily, I’m 99% sure you don’t need one going e.g. Germany to Czech Republic, Poland to Czech Republic, Czech Republic to Slovakia, etc.

Ref. e.g. Polish VFR AIP 1.5.1.2 here: EP_ENR_1_5_en.pdf

(edited to add quote for context)

Last Edited by tmo at 27 Jan 20:35
tmo
EPKP - Kraków, Poland

See here and another thread linked from there. There are indeed certain cases elsewhere in Europe where a cross-border FP can be avoided.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

tmo wrote:

Not necessarily, I’m 99% sure you don’t need one going e.g. Germany to Czech Republic, Poland to Czech Republic, Czech Republic to Slovakia, etc.

Yes, some countries have agreements on this, but most don’t.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

It appears the accident Jodel was involved in this accident in 2014 and this other one in 2012

Last Edited by Antonio at 27 Jan 22:18
Antonio
LESB, Spain

Two people survived the crash: a German skier from the helicopter and the French instructor that was seated in the back of the small aircraft.

It’s not what Aviation-Safety.net states.

LDZA LDVA, Croatia

Hello
I can add the following details as a former member of the aeroclub Megeve (west of the Mont Blanc Massif) where I spent my training Mountain-extension Snow, I had the opportunity to land on this beautiful slope of Ruitor overlooking the valley of Aosta.

Unless flying all his time in the Mountain, occasional flights (usually during an annual course) are mandatory with a Mountain Flight Instructor.

The landing in Glacier, as in altisurface or altiport, begins with a communication A / A on 130.0, the mountain frequency, to alert other aircraft that would be in the circuits (recognition high then low to decide if the snow is practicable and trajectory of takeoff) and also to know if another apparatus has already been posed or advises to go there (bad snow). When we go to the RUITOR (east slope) while passing in Italy, one avoids to communicate in specifying the place … because we crossed a border of a few hundred meters without FPL … and I suppose that our Italian friends proceed in the same way passing on the other side ..

As a result the A / A message could probably only come from the Helicopter if it did it ..?

It was the last flight of the afternoon and so the sun was lit less this east side of the “testa del Ruitor”, which can limit the view.

On the other hand, from my memory, I do not know if skiers are dropped off at the same place as landing zones.

So really sad!

PS my instructor who made me practically all my training mountain and snow died more than 10 years ago in a collision with another jodel approaching the altiport of Megeve and one of my other instructors stalled with a student on the mountain overlooking Sallanches on a very hot summer day … the proximity of the terrain is still potentially dangerous!

Adls
LFPU, France

Regardless of the outcome of the accident investigation, what’s missing IMHO is a pragmatic solution between the involved countries in this region (France, Italy, and Switzerland), to provide practical regulations for cross-border mountain flights to/from little mountain airfields.

Flight plans, ATC radio contact and “border crossed” messages, and customs processing (to/from Switzerland) are very impractical for such flights. (Happy to elaborate more if it’s not clear why.) Therefore it would be great to make such flights exempt from this (and perhaps come up with another way to announce and track such flights if needed by government). Perhaps through a web site in which the flight details are recorded by the pilot before the flight.

Why should the few mountain pilots get an exception? Because the resulting increase in safety (less covert flight activity, more radio reports) is a win-win for everyone flying there.

What I would also love for collision avoidance:

  • Mandatory radio messages in English in the mountains, including position reports every 5 minutes. This is unrealistic from my experience, but how can we be safe if we can’t even understand each other?
  • Mandatory beacons (ADS-B or similar) and traffic warning systems in all flying objects. The technology is available, so why not use it to save lives?
Last Edited by Zorg at 28 Jan 10:33
LFHN, LSGP, LFHM

Maoraigh wrote:

Would the Jodel been able to contact any ATC unit from the area it was operating in, in the mountains?

He needed to file a flight plan and he needs to get in contact with Milano information too. He can claim that the latter did not work (it frequently doesn’t in those areas) but he has no excuse not filing a flight plan. This is apparently a violation which happens quite a lot and people appear not to be aware that it can turn into a rather expensive felony to “forget” filing the flight plan.

How an instructor should sit in the rear is however beyond me. I suppose this guy will be in very deep problems if he survives.

LSZH, Switzerland

ADLS wrote:

When we go to the RUITOR (east slope) while passing in Italy, one avoids to communicate in specifying the place … because we crossed a border of a few hundred meters without FPL …

I don’t need to tell you that this is illegal and in this case went very wrong indeed. Assuming “the others do it as well” has never ever helped anyone in court. This poor bastard in hospital in Italy now will find out to his expense. I would not be surprised if the Italians make his a case “pour encourager les autres” to finally respect the laws.

ADLS wrote:

PS my instructor who made me practically all my training mountain and snow died more than 10 years ago in a collision with another jodel approaching the altiport of Megeve and one of my other instructors stalled with a student on the mountain overlooking Sallanches on a very hot summer day …

Maybe the way this club teaches should be carefully looked at by the competent authority? That would have been the 3rd accident we know about involving an instructor from that club? And, if I read above correctly, the same airplane has had 2 accidents before? I do wonder whether it’s the closeness of terrain which is the problem here or not rather the way people operate?

Zorg wrote:

Therefore it would be great to make such flights exempt from this (and perhaps come up with another way to announce and track such flights if needed by government). Perhaps through a web site in which the flight details are recorded by the pilot before the flight.

What’s the difference nowadays? Filing a flightplan is dead easy and clearly increases safety, why come up with a different “website”? And you can file in flight with information if you need. Otherwise, stay within your borders.

Zorg wrote:

Because the resulting increase in safety (less covert flight activity, more radio reports) is a win-win for everyone flying there.

How would it increase safety? I beg to opposite. With a filed flight plan, there will be SAR action automatically if a plane becomes overdue, without, nobody might notice for quite some time if a plane is missing. Just because a couple of pilots decide to ignore the law does not warrant any form of exception from that. Where I agree is with customs.

LSZH, Switzerland

The instructor was certainely (100%) not sitting in the back!
He would not survive that very long when instructing mountain flying on skis.

Because of the inconvenience the Jodel did not bother to file a flight plan which would have made the flight legal.
Consequently in order to camouflage their illegal operation they were not doing the mandatory Air to Air calls on 130.000 MHz.
The Ski Heli might have done the same (not doing calls on the mountain frequency).

If they would have filed a flight plan the Jodel would have been legal and they would not have felt the need to disguise the fact that they are operating in the same area as the helicopter who was absolutely legally flying there.

At the end a „negligence“ on behalf of the Megeve Jodel led to 7 fatalities.

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