RobertL18C wrote:
With a Z plan (VFR to IFR) you normally will have a gate where you don’t proceed until you have received your clearance.
Technically, it was actually an I plan, the UK accepts those from/to aerodromes without any IFR procedure, so I didn’t bother to correct it and just filed what was autogenerated.
RobertL18C wrote:
It is part of planning.
As far as ATC should be concerned, my planning was to get my clearance within about a dozen seconds of leaving the aerodrome frequency. That’s the usual (outside of Britain). ATC didn’t deliver, and I had to stop climb and significantly deviate from my planned and filed route to accommodate the late clearance. It took about 30 nmi.
RobertL18C wrote:
ATC did not issue a clearance because they were not coordinating that CAS.
Bollocks. The frequency that gave me the “not a clearance” was relaying that from the controller that gave me a clearance into that CAS, along with my climb to cruise level, after I contacted them. If London Control expected me to turn direct Seaford VOR, that should have been a clearance, issued by London Control and relayed by London Info with which I was in contact. If London Control expected me to stay out of CAS until in contact with them, and cleared by them directly over their frequency, that should have been just “call London Control on XXXX”, without a routing. Possibly with a reminder “stay outside of CAS until cleared by London Control” or in the form of “for your route and clearance, call London Control on XXXX”. The latter could have had an optional add-on “expect route direct to Seaford”. “Expect” is rather standard terminology to forewarn aircraft of what their clearance will be, so that they can prepare for it, without actually clearing them. Often used for approaches, as in “expect ILS runway 24”. At that point, you should brief the ILS24, but you are not cleared to follow that procedure yet.
My experience with French ATC is that they are quick to point out the active restricted areas on route
They do that but IME just a few nm before you infringe it 
What is the procedure / phraseology in Germany – Langen Radar usually I think? I haven’t flown there VFR for a long time.
In France, they can warn you 50nm ahead or not at all. Both happened to me. It depends on the ATCO.
lionel wrote:
As far as ATC should be concerned, my planning was to get my clearance within about a dozen seconds of leaving the aerodrome frequency. That’s the usual (outside of Britain).
Don’t know where this is “usual”, but for sure not in Germany. The way I’m used to it is that either you get your clearance via phone before takeoff or it takes couple of minutes in the air.
We must not forget, that (at least in most countries) the IFR-Flighplan system is not as automated as one could imagine – they don’t get an automated 2 minute warning just before your ETOT…
When you just call into a radar frequency (w/o talking by phone before) – even if you have the right one – you always hit the controller “by surprise”. So first thing he has to do is to dig out your FPL and check to what extend they can clear you and where they have to coordinate.
Peter wrote:
What is the procedure / phraseology in Germany – Langen Radar usually I think? I haven’t flown there VFR for a long time.
VFR in Germany outside airspace C you typically don’t talk to Radar as we have dedicated FIS frequencies (“Langen Information” for most part of Germany). The catch there is that they do not have your flight plan (even if you filed one) and therefore can’t warn you about restrictions further down the track. What they do, though, is to warn you about airspaces which are closer. “Please confirm that you intend to descent below 3500ft to stay clear of airspace …” or “Suggest to turn right by 30 degrees to avoid airspace …” are phrases that you hear quite frequently from FIS on their frequency – although formally they do not have any responsibility to do that.
Malibuflyer wrote:
Don’t know where this is “usual”, but for sure not in Germany. The way I’m used to it is that either you get your clearance via phone before takeoff or it takes couple of minutes in the air.
“usual” comes from my experience. I must be very lucky then. I haven’t done many departures into IFR flight from VFR-only aerodromes in Germany, but the ones I have done, even without a phone call or a relay, the controller took charge of me immediately. He may have put me on some “approximate heading” or sent me to “exit point of his FIR” or sent me to “reasonable point to begin IFR routing” before having seen the flightplan?
On the subject of prenotification (“a phone call before departure”), yes, I can easily imagine that makes their life easier. But then, well, publish that number? The “radio guy” on the uncontrolled aerodrome gives that number to you?
In Germany, I typically get “climb XXX, IFR starts passing YYY”, due to to the lesser view taken officially of uncontrolled IFR in class G. In the UK case, I was unambiguously already IFR, only “uncontrolled IFR outside CAS”.
boscomantico wrote:
No, there is no other way thanExactly this is the way I dealt with this ‘issue’ so far. But great to see it confirmed. We already talked about it face to face a bit.
- getting a feel for the ATC of each individual country (i.e, building experience)
- listening VERY carefully to what ATC says. After all if they say „approved“ or „proceed to“ then that is quite clear what they want, and that doesn‘t require an additional „cleared to/into“ (at least up to that point where they instructed you to go).
- remaining viglilant and when in doubt (but only then) asking ATC for confirmation.
However sometimes, it is hard to understand all the details in the heat of the moment. As you said, it’s still aviate, navigate, communicate. Sometimes, I just forgot what ATC said, even if my readback was correct.(However, if a tower clears you to join right base or whatever, then you ARE obviously cleared to enter. I would be interested in the exact words used).It was the CTR of Paderborn. I had to report Sierra and then the controller said “join base 24”. However, after penetrating the CTR he was claiming “No, I didn’t clear you into the CTR yet, I just said you should join extended base 24”. So he obviously ment a very long extended base for runway 24 outside of the CTR. I never got legal issues after it, but I know that some controllers in EDLP have a kind of police attitude. I also had an issue going once in EDLP when leaving the CTR to early, by just climbing out of it. The controller was almost screaming: “No, I didn’t clear you out of the CTR yet, stay below 2.500 ft at all times!” Well, in the past, there was indeed a TMA class D above the CTR of Paderborn, but since March 2019, it is only class E with TMZ starting at 2.500 ft. For me, it was like the controller wasn’t used to the new situation and liked to play air police a bit.
There is nothing in SERA that requires that particular phrase. A clearance doesn’t necessarily have to include the word “cleared”. E.g. “proceed” can also be used.Good to know, I couldn’t find it as well. But one of the guys of our local CAA claimed such a statement once, after I asked him about it. And during the German RT-exams (BZF), you need to hear and readback the words “cleared to enter CTR”, otherwise (if you don’t pay attention to it), you can fail the test.
If you are in contact with INFO/FIS be careful, aside from French FIS who are top pour “avancer le VFR schmilblick”, elsewhere FIS do seem clueless, powerless or unhelpful sometimes when it comes to airspace clearancesThat is also a good one, I have the same experience. Apparently, besides French FIS, Slovenian FIS (Ljubljana Information) can give you also clearances to enter CAS. The FISO routed me trough a part of the class C TMA of Ljubljana, coming from Graz on my way to Pula. I just followed his instructions and assumed it was OK, which afterwards, was indeed the correct interpretation.
This thread is the reason why I do almost all of my international flying IFR – it’s so much easier…Well, if every country would handle VFR like Scandinavian countries do, things would get really simple.
And in my opinion, the Slavic countries attend to use IFR phraseology also for VFR traffic, which is actually quite practical. Unfortunately, I don’t have my IR-ticket (yet), but I do like its easy and straightforward phraseology.Or “transit approuvé” (transit approved). I get that a lot from Bâle InformationI heard that phrase from Basel as well.
However, 3 weeks ago, the FISO didn’t say anything like that, except “identified”. Because I needed to cross his TMA class D, I just asked “confirm transit approved?”, after which he just said “oh yes, approved!”.VFR in Germany outside airspace C you typically don’t talk to Radar as we have dedicated FIS frequencies (“Langen Information” for most part of Germany). The catch there is that they do not have your flight plan (even if you filed one) and therefore can’t warn you about restrictions further down the track.But Langen doesn’t ask about your routing as well and if you tell them, they just don’t care. In Austria or Switzerland, the FISO always wants to know your exact routing and will give you reporting points. Another thing I don’t like about Langen Info, is the slappy RT-attitude of many pilots on the frequency. Saying that, some German FISO’s like to play funny (mostly in German only), which is also not quite professional. Don’t get me wrong, I like relaxed and friendly ATC/FIS, but it shouldn’t get a funny chat-frequency, which sometimes happends on Langen Info.
I think every ATCO in France can get your flight plan, and probably also in some other countries. But in say the UK they really cannot. London INFO probably can dig it out, but since they have to pretend they don’t see you on radar (because, to save money, they are FISOs, not ATCOs, and especially not radar-qualified ATCOs which cost even more) this is of little use to them.
It’s very simple an FIS/SIV might approve transit "transit approve "of a particular piece of CAS or a restricted area from point A to point B which will be the transit route you have given in your radio contacts. The FISO will have coordinated this approval with the ATCO responsible for the CAS. This will often mean coordinating it with him/herself. A FISO cannot give you a clearance.
If you are talking with say that same person with his ATCO hat on eg you are talking on an approach frequency he might say "Transit authorizé or “cleared to transit” A to B …
@Peter you often say that you had problems in crossing a ZIT around a nuclear power station.
I suspect you infringed a “P” prohibited zone. That is a definite no no. No-one can clear you through most of those and normally even for a slight incursion you will get busted. It is a lot of hassle as you can read often in the FFA rex published each sunday.
Frans wrote:
But Langen doesn’t ask about your routing as well and if you tell them, they just don’t care. In Austria or Switzerland, the FISO always wants to know your exact routing and will give you reporting points.
Everything has pros and cons. Every time an Austrian controller asks me about my exact routing I’m inclined to say “We’ll see” and when hie gives me a reporting point “yeah, if I happen to pass by I might give you a call”.
When it’s airspace Echo, I’m free to fly wherever I want and if I make up my mind during the flight, I can change plans at my discretion. Therefore I like the German FIS attitude more
