Peter wrote:
An “I” FP would have been slightly better because Biggin is more likely to expect you to expect to be asking for an IAP (BTW they use Thames Radar for vectoring etc so you get transferred to them ASAP; actually you may call them initially… I don’t remember).
I don’t see that it should matter. A Z plan means that the final part is IFR and then the IFPS should distribute the FP to Biggin and Thames in exactly the same way as for an I plan.
Peter wrote:
It isn’t " British exceptionalism"; it is the result of (a) privatised ATC and (b) a cost recovery policy.
Surely it is the result of much more than that? Even if the UK did have an integrated ATC system, the airspace structure would still be much different from what you would expect to see in the rest of Europe.
Every country in Europe has a different airspace structure.
Airborne_Again wrote:
I don’t see that it should matter. A Z plan means that the final part is IFR and then the IFPS should distribute the FP to Biggin and Thames in exactly the same way as for an I plan.
Is Biggin part of EC IFPS distribution list? or NATS FP distribution list? it may not matter as far as Biggin are concerned you can send them a V-FPL or turn up without one and still fly their ILS if you wish on arrival, in any case one need to follow this
https://www.aurora.nats.co.uk/htmlAIP/Publications/2018-12-06-AIRAC/html/eAIP/EG-ENR-1.11-en-GB.html
I am sure I/Z/Y/V matters a lot on entering UK/France FIR boundary, not sure what is the filed level? and VFR/IFR transition point?
But here is what happens when you are inbound to UK from France at FIR boundary,
- On IFR above FL80 you get handed to London ATC, you fly in Alpha with clerance to fly toward destination wholly in airpsace, or to some nearby published arrival, or to some place to get lost or dumped
- On IFR bellow FL75, you get handed/freecall to London FIS, you fly in IFR in Golf with IFR clearance to remain outside controlled airspace
- On VFR bellow FL75, you get to freecall London Info, you fly in VFR in Golf with IFR with VFR clearance to remain outside controlled airspace
If you get cleared IFR on LYD SID out of LFAT or arrive at FIR boundary at +FL80, you should have no issues flying IFR (if you get asked to call London Info, say NO as you ideally wanted a higher water crossing in IMC, you will be handed and cleared into LTMA 
)
All FPs validated by IFPS arrive at the departure and destination airports. AFAIK and IME this is never suppressed by LTCC. So an IFR FP Shoreham to Lydd at 2000ft is delivered to both. But it is then discarded in every respect, except that it ends up in the “secret national security FP database” which every country runs and which is accessible for S&R purposes, and which ATC can access if pushed hard enough.
The distribution to enroute is what LTCC control and I don’t know the details. According to a former ATCO (he is now dead; no live ones will ever disclose the details) the process is in MATS part 2 and confidential but all regulars know broadly speaking what happens if you file “too low” (what happens is what I describe above in the 2000ft case).
Ibra, where did you find the 3 cases you describe? They would be in a LTCC-Paris LOA. They don’t seem far off reality; FL080 is in CAS at the UK boundary (FL075 base). But I have had variations of that e.g. a handover to “London 124.6” at FL080 which is a huge trap.
Has anyone written a primer for the uninitiated on flying IFR into the UK? I feel like I’ve seen lots of little bits of information, and on the surface it seems like I’m likely to lose my clearance at any moment and without warning if I make the wrong move…
Peter wrote:
Ibra, where did you find the 3 cases you describe?
Just my observation from flying in that corner, I am sure one has to keep an eye on the available controlled airspace in France & UK as outside it one is simply flying IFR “without clearance” on ICAO FIS, hence, no surprises if you get a funky handover
Yes on UK side, yes the base of LTMA start at FL80, on French side, DVR SID from Calais & LYD SID from LeTouquet takes you into LTMA, the publihsed routes are one-way (Echo +FL65 & Alpha +FL80), Lille TMA goes from 1.5kft-FL65 over Calais CTR & LeTouquet CTR, General Delta starts at +FL115, I am dead sure being off-route IFR OCAS is likely to mean no handover, if you are controlled IFR on vectors/directs on both sides you will get a handover
In my opinion, it’s not UK specific, if you are flying IFR OCAS in France you will get reminded to avoid other bits of NOTAM/RA/TRA airspace but for sure you don’t get “hanged like VFR” if you nip a bit of airspace and you rarelly get thrown in the void without handover/frequency (unless when you are on descent to VFR airfield while talking to CAS ATC who rarely offer FIS OCAS)
Peter wrote:
handover to “London 124.6” at FL080 which is a huge trap
yes the base of LTMA start at FL80
FL075, which is key to this issue. It means a FL080 flight leaving France will be in CAS at the airspace boundary.
Well, half the key. The other half is the secret LTCC-Paris/Lille LOA.
It used to be the case, for many years, that the only way to get a handover to London Control was if using oxygen! (FL120+).
In France it isn’t a problem because it is a joined-up system.
Has anyone written a primer for the uninitiated on flying IFR into the UK? I feel like I’ve seen lots of little bits of information, and on the surface it seems like I’m likely to lose my clearance at any moment and without warning if I make the wrong move…
The simple answer is: stay in CAS. FL080-FL100 is a good policy, in the “flying into the south east UK sector”.
Into the south west UK, No, because it is Class G up to FL199 (look at the VFR chart) and they will dump you if you are below FL200. Well, you might get lucky, if you "look serious, sound foreign and confused and thus potentially a pile of trouble, and flying at say FL150. See the EGKA-EGHE thread.
Peter wrote:
In France it isn’t a problem because it is a joined-up system.
As long as you stay above 3kft in busy places or 6kft in empty places, things works smoothly, if you are looking for IFR OCAS oustide these levels you may get surprised by some ATC/FIS procedures & clearances (but I am still impressed they do their best to accomodate any GA flying profile into “the system”, for sure it’s nowhere near the UK fiasco, especially the parts involving NATS & CAA)
Could the difference have anyrhing to do with the fact that FL080 is an IFR altitude whereas FL075 is a VFR altitude?
