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Germany: new RMZ and changes to airspace F; IFR in G on 11 DEC 2014

Bookworm – why every airport I have ever been to, anywhere (Europe or USA), IFR, cleared me for the approach?

(ignoring historical UK practice where the actual phrase was avoided, and one got the multi-step version)

Is there some capability to fly an approach in Class G without a clearance, on the (obviously true) basis that no clearance is possible in Class G therefore none needs to be given?

It’s all very well to dismiss this with “Neither ICAO nor SERA have any such requirements” but the reality doesn’t exactly support that.

Can anyone offer a detailed explanation of why we have the system we have, and why changing it is so difficult?

Last Edited by Peter at 21 Apr 20:45
Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

I did mean OCAS in any conditions.

G-AKUI was an enroute mid-air OCAS, albeit VFR. That report quotes a figure of 30 mid-air collisions involving UK-registered aircraft between 1995-2004.

Last Edited by Rich at 21 Apr 21:29
EGBJ / Gloucestershire

Bookworm – why every airport I have ever been to, anywhere (Europe or USA), IFR, cleared me for the approach?

Ever been to France?

ENR 1.5 A – UTILISATION DES PROCEDURES D’APPROCHE AUX INSTRUMENTS EN IFR
EN L’ABSENCE D’ORGANISME DE LA CIRCULATION AERIENNE SUR L’AERODROME
Utilization of instrument approach procedures under IFR without ATC

Most airports with IAPs have associated controlled airspace, and therefore a clearance is required for IFR. There is no requirement for a clearance solely because of the existence of an IAP (except in the UK, though the obligation is on the airfield operator to provide approach control).

Most airports with IAPs have associated controlled airspace, and therefore a clearance is required for IFR

OK; so Class G is the key, as I suggested. Interesting…

G-AKUI was an enroute mid-air OCAS, albeit VFR. That report quotes a figure of 30 mid-air collisions involving UK-registered aircraft between 1995-2004.

OK; that one looks “enroute”. A good reason to not fly at 2000ft… There are about 2 mid-airs per year in the UK so the 30 looks about right.

I think the “no midairs” situation applies strictly to midairs in IMC.

I really thought there were virtually none in VMC too once you take out situations like low level, aerodrome vicinity, formation flight, etc. It looks like the figure isn’t zero but it certainly is very low. That accident report is the first I recall ever reading which describes something like that.

Last Edited by Peter at 22 Apr 07:20
Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

OK; that one looks “enroute”. A good reason to not fly at 2000ft… There are about 2 mid-airs per year in the UK so the 30 looks about right.

But I bet most of them are in or around the circuit of airfields with A/G or AFIS……IMO there should be either full ATC or nothing…..on the weekend I went to Wellesbourne and traffic turning all over the place in silence…because they had reported overhead and final as per the FISO request….all probably with the false comfort that someone was looking out for them….this type of service discourages people from listening out properly and reporting their position helpfully to others…..I read the CHIRP and am amazed at the number of these Airprox incidents at such airfields….as I said IMO this service should be banned!

YPJT, United Arab Emirates

Just to add few more details of why so few german GA have IFR procedures. It does indeed have rather little to do with ATC provision.

It’s all the “other” costs and hassles involved that make it so difficult, even if it is just for a plain LNAV approach. Some of these difficulties derive from ICAO requirements, some are just the usual gold plating by LBA, DFS and other agencies.

Some things that a previously VFR-only GA airfield would have to do:

-approach design and testing
-obstacle surveys (lots!)
-usually a lot of tree cutting (big problem in Germany)
-extending and widening of the runway, new markings
-night lighting, PAPI, etc.
-often demolition of buildings that protrude into the obstacle free zone
-a “tower” building is required
-ATC fees
-etc.

The last succesful attempt was at Hassfurt EDQT; they devised their GPS approach last September, after almost 10 years of project work. Don’t know how many millions it cost them all in all.

Schönhagen EDAZ has been working on it for much more than ten years and they still did not succeed because they are still in trial with the NIMBYs (the actual DFS approvals have been in place for a few years now).

It’s a great shame and any VFR airfield havin such ambitions has a few very discouraging examples at their hand, so almost nobody embarks on that costly and long adventure any longer…

Last Edited by boscomantico at 22 Apr 07:40
Mainz (EDFZ) & Egelsbach (EDFE), Germany

…because they are still in trial with the NIMBYs…

If it were only the NIMBYs. A few years ago I was approached by some people to help them with the studies required to establish an RNAV procedure at their airfield (not too far away from EDDS). It wouldn’t have been easy – the usual tall trees on one end and difficult negotiations with the owner of the land where the approach lights would have had to be installed – but doable. But as soon as the gliding club resident at this airfield heard about the project, they formed a strong opposition and vetoed all further attempts. Obviously they thought their airfield would be turned into an international airport and they would lose the right to use it… But there has always been a strong resentment of glider pilots vs. powered pilots in this country, I remember that from my own gliding days.

EDDS - Stuttgart

Does an airfield need runway lights for an IAP?

Obviously it would be limited to daylight only if it didn’t have them, and the min vis would have to be a lot more generous.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Two weeks ago I was training at http://www.airnav.com/airport/KOQN amongst others. It does look like the typical VFR airfield – just a few more hangars. It is the place where I first got introduced to the VOR-A approach but it does have GPS LNAV for both runway ends too. Lighting is LIRL. There is even a remark “Runway edge markings: RY 27 MARKING VERY FADED” :-)

Maybe that serves as an example of what a low-tech and low-cost IAP might look like.

Where in Europe do we have fields like that? Maybe France has them?

Last Edited by Stephan_Schwab at 22 Apr 16:13
Frequent travels around Europe

Yes, France does resemble the US quite a bit there. Especially due to the shear number of good airfields, the possibility of flying IFR approaches without anyone at the airfield, the self-serve fuel, etc.

The one occasion that most reminded me of the feeling of “flying in the US” was an instrument approach I once flew into Mende-Brenoux (LFNB) on a hot summer day. Cleared for the approach, then air/air messages to coordinate landing direction with another aircraft in the area. As
I was taxying in to the generous parking area, a PZL Dromedar was getting ready for a waterbombing mission. Nobody else there at the sleepy airport (closed my flightplan by telephone). But the restaurant was open.

Last Edited by boscomantico at 22 Apr 19:55
Mainz (EDFZ) & Egelsbach (EDFE), Germany
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