I agree with that.
How does this relate to IFR flying?
I got my IR recently, and did some nice trips now, via airways on oxygen levels.
I would state that it is totally impossible to execute this type of flight without GPS. I have got two G430's on board, and use them extensively. Not only during cruise, but also in the approach to get situational awareness on how far I am from the localizer, the distance to go, etc.
I think that when I lose both GPS units, I will declare an emergency. Being a relatively inexperienced IFR pilot flying single pilot, I might not be able to deal with the situation where I need to fall back on traditional radio navigation in a RNAV environment.
Is there anyone here that flies IFR without GPS? What would you do if GPS stops working during a IFR trip?
I started this thread as I was interested in this topic. I don't have an IR but do fly IFR rules in IMC where I legally can in the UK or elsewhere (I have an IMC Rating). I only have one GNS430 and an iPad running SkyDemon. Yesterday I went to La Rochelle using the Garmin as the main navigational 'aid' if I can call it that and was VMC on top of mostly broken clouds.
Had my Garmin or iPad failed what would I do ? I suppose I had all my paper charts, and SkyDemon did generate a PLOG with bearings and distances from VOR's so I could probably navigate like that. I'd probably want to descent to levels where I could see the ground for additional references and perhaps that would prevent me from receiving a signal from some VOR's. If that was the case, I don't think I would declare a Mayday, or a PAN, but If VMC I'd hope I could navigate the 'traditional' way to La Rochelle. But I have no doubt it would be hard work and not relaxing or fun (I think flying should be fun and relaxing, and making the most of GPS). But I suppose if I was pure IFR and descending to visual reference to the ground was not possible or safe I would be looking for a diversion - possibly. However on yesterdays trip I would have had to proceed much further as most airfields on my route were non-customs and I'd want to avoid the extra hassle that comes with that. As always, no right or wrong answer - one has to be safe, but its interesting to hear people's personal views nonetheless.
PiperArcher: Do you carry VFR charts on a IFR flight? Because I don't. Continuing VFR might be a challenge using the Enroute IFR chart :-)
I will just do a PAN PAN stating that I lost my RNAV capability and get vectored to my destination. Better safe than sorry...
You could certain get to La Rochelle via VORs e.g. CAN REN NTS. There are some intersections but they lie on the airways so can be navigated to using VOR/DME (not all French VORs have a DME however).
A private pilot does need to have VFR charts even on an IFR flight, unless 100% sure the whole flight will be in CAS runway-to-runway and the airport towers will be manned so you never have to depart untowered and have to pick up an IFR clearance in the air. That can be a really dangerous phase of flight (a number of pilots I know of have got killed while waiting for an IFR clearance, though one could argue it was poor planning) and continuous obstacle awareness (which in "classical IFR" is normally assured by using the published airways and their MEAs) is also necessary. This is a problem with panel mounted "glass" avionics which despite giving you great eye candy for the five-digit spend tend to be poor for this sort of thing.
I will just do a PAN PAN stating that I lost my RNAV capability and get vectored to my destination
Indeed, or you could say you lost RNAV capability and ask for a VOR route. Sometimes you have to fly higher, however.
PiperArcher: Do you carry VFR charts on a IFR flight? Because I don't. Continuing VFR might be a challenge using the Enroute IFR chart :-)
Yes, I do, so I guess that makes it easier. I suppose its impractical to at least carry paper VFR charts for an entire (long) route. I don't have much experience, but from what I have seen, IFR enroute charts would make VFR flight challenging.
I would state that it is totally impossible to execute this type of flight without GPS.
I think that is a bit of a stretch. We all used to fly a lot of IFR without GPS. We may not want to do it but that doesn't make it impossible.
I think that when I lose both GPS units, I will declare an emergency.
I also don't agree with this. Unless this is caused by an electrical failure, why is it an emergency? You should always know approximately where you are and how to bring up some land based aids. If you are at low level and unsure of your position then that may well be a different matter. To Peter's point, in that case climb to the MSA in a direction that is likely to keep you away from hitting terrain.
The more practical aspect is that
You legally need RNAV capability for all enroute IFR in CAS in Europe. It used to be FL095+ but now is all CAS, but even FL095+ made it de facto mandatory because flying Eurocontrol IFR below FL095 was feasible only on certain short routes (Shoreham to Le Touquet FL080 being perhaps one example).
ATC treat all waypoints as RNAV (virtual) waypoints, regardless of whether they are virtual ones e.g. TRACA or real navaids e.g. SFD or LT, and in the case of the real navaids they obviously totally disregard whether you can receive the navaid (i.e. its DOC).
So flying "Eurocontrol IFR" is just about impossible without GPS, and is illegal without an BRNAV approved IFR GPS installation anyway - or without some other means of RNAV compliance which can only be INS or LORAN, neither of which is applicable to light GA.
So if you lose GPS you do have to tell them. It should not IMHO be a mayday or a pan, unless something else has gone badly wrong (e.g. partial panel due to a loss of one bus).
I have had only one GPS failure in 11 years with the TB20, described here. I asked for a VOR route and got it, but had to go higher than filed (had to go to FL160). The GPS recovered after maybe 1hr, mysteriously...
... INS or LORAN, neither of which is applicable to light GA
In the 1990s I had a Mooney TLS (Mooney Bravo) which came with a Northstar M1. That Northstar was originally a Loran receiver but when I bought the plane, Northstar offered an upgrade to a combined Loran/GPS receiver for which I had to send my unit to the States. Was very happy with that now called Northstar M2 for 5-6 years I flew my plane. The Northstar M2 was followed by the Northstar M3 GPS. Today I'm no longer aware of the Loran chains performance but a GPS back-up would be feasible also for GA provided the goverments continue to support Loran C or even work on the new e-Loran development.
I think that when I lose both GPS units, I will declare an emergency.
I also don't agree with this. Unless this is caused by an electrical failure, why is it an emergency?
It's a potential emergency as I am a fresh (inexperienced) IFR pilot flying single pilot in an aircraft that has a unreliable autopilot. Of course it depends on the circumstances, but if I am in a unfamiliar environment, flying a route which is defined by virtual waypoints, in IMC and get a GPS failure, I will notify ATC and request vectors rather than figuring out how I could get to my destination using traditional nav aids.
