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Low visibility takeoff (and landing, too) FAA/EASA

europaxs wrote:

How can you be sure??

You can’t. The only sure things in life are death and taxes.

Why do you have to be 100% sure about everything?

The time it takes until 500ft AGL is very short. How many Cirrus accidents happened because the aircraft lost an engine before it reached 500ft AGL? I would not have any reservation about doing a 0/0 takeoff in a Cirrus. Less actually than in a piston twin as the OEI flying characteristics can be hairy.

I’m not that sure about the death

EDLE

achimha wrote:

Why do you have to be 100% sure about everything

I (at least) didn’t say that.

Last Edited by europaxs at 03 Nov 10:39
EDLE

Peter wrote:

A year or two ago I read somewhere a very very long analysis of the rules which concluded that 150m is the lowest for departures if you have the full IR.

Not if you are an operating under Part-NCO

165.The requirements for LVTO are aligned with the Part-CAT and Part-SPA proposal requiring a Part-SPA approval for any take-off below 400m.

Since Part-NCO is not (yet) in force in every country today, this information may be in your national regulation.

Last Edited by Guillaume at 03 Nov 10:42

Peter wrote:

For arrivals, it is something like 550m if the airport has HIAL, otherwise about 800m. This is all official RVR; if there is no RVR (where the first “R” means “runway” ) reported then it is less clear.

On the contrary, I find it very clear

GM5 NCO.OP.110 Aerodrome operating minima — aeroplanes and helicopters
CONVERSION OF REPORTED METEOROLOGICAL VISIBILITY TO RVR/CMV
(a) A conversion from meteorological visibility to RVR/CMV should not be used:
(1) when reported RVR is available;
(2) for calculating take-off minima; and
(3) for other RVR minima less than 800 m.
(b) If the RVR is reported as being above the maximum value assessed by the
aerodrome operator, e.g. ‘RVR more than 1 500 m’, it should not be considered as
a reported value.
(c) For all other circumstances, Table 5 should be used.

Gee ….

If I wasn’t sure that my airplane will make it to 500 ft, I wouldn’t fly at all. OF COURSE you can still have an EFATO in 50 ft, but it is very, very unlikely to happen – and actually there has been no Cirrus accident like that, ever.

Other than that, EFATO because of a catastrophic mechanical failure is a very rare thing. The cases I know were almost all either fuel related (fuel switch on empty tank of off) or bird strikes (jets) … but a catastrophic engine failure below 500 ft … I will risk that any day, especially if I know the airplane, its maintance status and condition …

550m is tricky, I did a few in the simulator recently, and on one I went around because I didn’t see anything; the instructor said the lights were there but I looked in the wrong place, i.e. too far ahead. They were almost under the nose.

I have done 700m in an aircraft and that is hard.

Departure yesterday at the airport Vis limit of 350m was straightforward but as you say if something goes wrong you need a plan b as return is not possible.

EGTK Oxford

Landing in CAT I limiting conditions is difficult. Not just seeing the required visual reference in the first place, but knowing how to handle the aircraft in poor visibility close to the ground.

The biggest threat transitioning to a visual landing is ducking under – when looking outside with no horizon, just the runway threshold and a bit of the runway the instinct is to pitch down and get below the glide and increase RoD and mess up the approach. You will then have very limited visual reference to flare, and be relying on far more of your peripheral vision than looking ahead of you.

Use the automatics as much as possible, don’t change your configuration (a surprising number of SEP pilots seem to have been taught to fly instrument approaches half flap and take full flap when visual) and make very smooth, minor control inputs when flying manually. Keep your scan going inside too, especially RoD and attitude and always be prepared to go around. One of my most uncomfortable moments was going around from about 100ft when losing all visual reference in a fog patch. One minute the runway was there and I could see my aim point, the next – nothing. The chance of spatial disorientation is very high when suddenly losing visual reference, accelerating and pitching up into a go around.

London area

I have changed the title to include landings

Departure yesterday at the airport Vis limit of 350m

I wonder what determines these “airport limits”?

Does anyone have a reference for the 150m “absolute limit” which I posted? It would be relevant to an airport which has no departure minima (most UK Class G airports, and probably all non-ATC ones). The Class D ones will all have IFR and VFR minima in their Mats Part 2 book, and in the AIP AFAIK.

a surprising number of SEP pilots seem to have been taught to fly instrument approaches half flap and take full flap when visual

That’s what I do

But I would delay going to full flap until well below the cloud and autopilot disengaged.

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Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom
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