Forum,
I just did and passed my annual IR proficiency check (EASA). The examiner told me that i should be obtaining PBN Privileges by obtaining PBN training from an approved course at an approved ATO, and be checked by an approved examiner…
Problem is: no such things as approved ecaminers, schools or instructors in Belgium.
I am flying GPS approaches and in RNP5 airspace since 2007 with approved avionics. I believe i am proficient in the matter of various GPS approaches.
Is there a grandfathering right?
Do you know a flightschool / instructor / examiner combination?
Really? Seriously EASA?
This is a huge issue that all the NAAs are struggling with. Even British Airways’ PBN course was rejected by the UK CAA.
The introduction of PBN is probably the biggest f**k up EASA has done yet, and will inevitably lead to more years of endless derogations as the people at the NAAs struggle themselves to understand and implement the requirement.
I was one of the authors of the PBN Manual, and I have a reasonable overview of the domain. I agree that there is absolutely no need for this regulatory overkill. We have followed magenta lines for 20 years, and PBN essentially means “keep following those magenta lines, boys, just as you always have.”
Niner_Mike wrote:
Is there a grandfathering right?
No.
Niner_Mike wrote:
Really? Seriously EASA?
That’s not an EASA thing, but an ICAO reqirement. AFAIK, the FAA also mandates pilot qualifications for flying PBN procedures, at least for anything but private operations. There is a lot more to PBN than just GPS approaches and some of the topics are not trivial. I see that in every day operations, even flying with people who have been to the course more than once…
Niner_Mike wrote:
Problem is: no such things as approved ecaminers, schools or instructors in Belgium.
I would guess that the commercial operators have a designated person who is qualified to hold a PBN course (e.g. Abelag). In our company I have been that person for some years (had to hold my first course in the presence of an official of our LBA). We also had external pilots attending our courses, so I guess you could join an similar course in Belgium. Since last year our management has decided that it is too expensive to hold face-to-face courses for most of the mandatory training, because we lose too many flights by “grounding” the crews during the course days, so we have to do it by online-course now. For PBN we use the course provided by Scandlearn (https://scandlearn.com/). I am certain that there are other providers as well, maybe cheaper and better, but I don’t really know.
Is PBN the same as PRNAV?
Is the PBN Manual a later version of this?
Otherwise, what is it?
Some avionics are not certified to RNAV1 (which I believe is the same as PRNAV in lateral accuracy terms) and the KLN94 is one of these, but all IFR boxes from the GNS430 onwards are OK.
PBN is in the same domain as RNAV, but is a superset. Essentially, it covers all the technological aspects of RNAV, but also includes all the airspace, procedures, regulations, approvals, operations, standards etc.
Also, it is not right to say that PBN=RNAV1=PRNAV. PBN covers all RNAV and RNP standards, right up to RNAV10, and down to RNP APCH.
And also, it is not as simple as to say GNSx30W does it all. For example, it doesn’t do “Radius to Fix” legs, which are a key building block of RNP and PBN. And RNAV covers other technologies than GNSS.
I do do a lecture on all this stuff; I have already done it about 25 or 30 times, including eight times at Friedrichshafen. If this group would like to arrange such a talk, please someone organise it.
Maybe there is enough critical mass here on EuroGA for one of your lectures, Timothy?
But – like so much in GA – if we are to get a stream of derogations (and IMHO we must otherwise IFR GA would face a collapse if this was suddenly implemented) then few people will bother doing courses. I was one of the very few who complied with the EASA attack on N-regs by doing the JAA IR in 2011, and got ridiculed for it 
If a GNS530W is not compliant then we are facing carnage in the IFR community. Of course a lot of people will be rubbing their hands – same with 8.33 and every other regulatory move in aviation or elsewhere.
it is not right to say that PBN=RNAV1=PRNAV
I said RNAV1=PRNAV for lateral nav. Is that (taken in isolation) not correct? GPS approaches narrow it down further, from 1nm to 0.3nm. But PRNAV approval requires an LoA from the certification authority.
The FAA has AFAIK exempted private GA from PRNAV, but this is good in US airspace only.
Does PRNAV still exist, or has it all been wrapped up into PBN?
Peter wrote:
If a GNS530W is not compliant then we are facing carnage in the IFR community.
Not compliant to what? PBN is a supserset of all kinds of navigation procedures, as Timothy already wrote. Apart from some very recent airliner equipment I guess there are not many installations capable to do every PBN procedure.
Peter wrote:
Does PRNAV still exist, or has it all been wrapped up into PBN?
“PRNAV” is an old European designation for the US term RNP-1 which is one of many PBN standards.
Timothy: i am in for your course. Can we do it via videoconference?
“PRNAV” is an old European designation for the US term RNP-1 which is one of many PBN standards.
OK. I have merged the latest thread with the original PRNAV thread and renamed it accordingly.
Apart from some very recent airliner equipment I guess there are not many installations capable to do every PBN procedure.
Indeed, but how about limiting this to “likely GA stuff” and not the RNP-whatever procedure into Innsbruck
AIUI, all this boils down to is
I am assuming the aircraft can fly an ILS, so if there is an ILS and I can’t fly some other IAP, I don’t really need to care. And I suspect most of the airports in question will have an ILS.
What have I missed?
Does anyone have any idea how much longer I can fly IFR in Europe with my KLN94? That’s only slightly tongue in cheek!
Peter wrote:
what is needed to access all European airports, not counting hairy stuff like LOWI…
Innsbruck does not require any specific PBN capability apart from the RNAV approaches (which require special crew and aircraft authorisation anyway)!
Peter wrote:
Does anyone have any idea how much longer I can fly IFR in Europe with my KLN94?
All that is required for IFR within Europe is B-RNAV / RNP-5 for enroute flying. And I guess this will not change in the near future. AFAIK the only airport so far which only has PRNAV / RNP-5 arrival and departure routes is Amsterdam. There are some more, but all of them have either conventional (VOR/DME/NDB) based procedures as an alternative or BRNAV ones.
