Centurion_Flyer wrote:
All glider pilots I know have at least once climbed much closer than 300 m to the cloud base.
All glider pilots I know, and we are taking completion flying, fly within 10 meters of cloud base. Within means + and – .As @Michael rightly noted the closer to the cloud base you get the strongest the updrafts therefore you can fly faster. As simple as it gets. The only practical limitation is that once you are very close to the cloud base you loose visibility of situation ahead. This restricts your ability to make tactical decisions.
Fuji_Abound wrote:
I find little to justify their exception especially as they usually rely on flarm, if, infact they transpond at all. At the best of times they are hard enough to spot as it is.
I would really not expect any glider to have a transponder in low level flying in uncontrolled airspace. I know there are exceptions, but those exceptions confirm the rule. VFR flying is all about see and avoid, right? A flarm or (Openflarm) would help, but don’t rely on it 100% because even in places where Flarm is mandatory I got surprised more than once.
I would really not expect any glider to have a transponder in low level flying in uncontrolled airspace. I know there are exceptions, but those exceptions confirm the rule.
I have seen quite a few with Mode C. Very responsible! If I was gliding I would always fly with Mode C.
VFR flying is all about see and avoid, right?
Come for a flight with me and count the ones on TCAS and count the ones you spot 
Peter wrote:
If I was gliding I would always fly with Mode C.
Peter, how would you power your transponder? Are you selling solar panels for gliders? Last time I checked, and it was a few years ago Schleicher asked 2k Euro for one. Add another 2K for a transponder. I mean you can do it, but the sport gets even more expensive and exclusive. And what would be the benefit? That some chosen few, hight net worth individuals can spot you on their TCAS? 
A glider is a different animal to an airplane. Once you acknowledge this you might change your expectations on how it flies and what it transmits. Of course there are gliders which look like gliders but might act and transmit like aeroplanes. ASH 31mi is a great example.
Peter wrote:
Come for a flight with me and count the ones on TCAS and count the ones you spo
Invitation accepted
Peter, how would you power your transponder
With a lithium battery.
If you go plant-based you will lose enough weight to power the whole kit quite quickly. I lost 7kg in 3 months which is way more than the battery plus the TXP, and I hope to live a lot longer etc as a result
Are you selling solar panels for gliders?
I have not and have never had any aviation related business and if I had I would disclose it. We have rules on that here on EuroGA, which are pretty generous but still some try to bend them.
Solar panels are useless for this. Very expensive, heavy, and the output falls to a tiny % the instant the sun goes behind a little cloud or haze, so you would still need a battery.
I would buy a Mode C box from US Ebay.
Plus FLARM of course.
That some chosen few, hight net worth individuals can spot you on their TCAS?
Without the smiley that would have been an unwarranted slur on thousands of pilots around Europe who judged this to be worth paying for, when somebody spending 3x that on avionics eye candy is just being “normal”
But this does show the divisions within GA in Europe which lead to GA being divided and ruled by anybody who wants to have a go, and it renders the Europan AOPAs mostly ineffective because of this sort of thing
It is not a case of some “chosen few” rich spotting a glider on his TCAS. It is a case of potentially saving the lives of everybody in both aircraft.
The issue with gliders operating in IMC is that they can be flying through Class G instrument approach paths legally, and I wonder how many of them are aware of that? It is a Q worth asking. A PPL holder won’t be aware either but he should not be in IMC. And a PPL holder with an IMCR or an IR would know to not fly through an IAP.
In some respects I dont think we should just critize the gliding community. In reality part of the GA fleet does not transpond at all and part only mode A. Then a transponder is only as much use as the other aircraft having traffic because the reality is en route services outside CAS are so poor you will not have a worthwhile traffic service most of the time.
Personally at my risk adverse years I would like to see every flying machine have a transponder so at least those who decide to have traffic can “see” them, accepting that traffic is expensive and a step too far for many. In reality I am not sure the evidence supports the safety argument because there are so few collisions in open FIR as to suggest the risk is very very small, and, I suspect to have a meaningful effect then traffic would also have to be much more widely installed as two conflicting transponder aircraft without traffic might just as well not have the transponders either.
Of course we all know the technology is also pretty outdated, and if we were determined to solve this “problem” then active transponding and traffic would come as a single package probably at a fraction of the existing cost, but because it is not seen as a “problem” there is no rush to change.
Peter wrote:
The issue with gliders operating in IMC is that they can be flying through Class G instrument approach paths legally, and I wonder how many of them are aware of that? It is a Q worth asking. A PPL holder won’t be aware either but he should not be in IMC. And a PPL holder with an IMCR or an IR would know to not fly through an IAP.
This is a very good point! I don’t know how many countries, except UK, would allow flying in IMC in uncontrolled airspace
Peter wrote:
With a lithium battery.
I feel like now I need to invite you for a little gliding adventure, just to let you try first hand how things work in a glider. Don’t get me wrong, the idea of lithium battery and the one about getting a transponder from e-bay and the other one about loosing weight, those are all good concepts, but will not necessarily convince any significantficant number of glider pilot to instal a transponder.
The problem with Mode-C in a glider is that it doesn’t stand the cost benefit scrutiny. There are very very few collisions between gliders and non-participating traffic, and a huge percentage of the fleet of gliders are machines that are worth less than £4000 – there are vast numbers of old wooden gliders still around, and gliding is one of the few forms of flying open to people on working class incomes. Spending >£2k on a transponder (it’s not just the transponder, but the uprated battery, the labour costs, and certification costs – many of these cheap gliders are EASA aircraft with all the associated paperwork costs, and which can only have certified equipment installed – how expensive will an approved lithium battery be?) on a glider that already has FLARM will have real opportunity costs – that’s >£2k the glider owner now doesn’t have to spend on other things, which inevitably means deferred maintenance (which is far likely to result in an accident risk than the very small risk of a mid-air collision with a non-FLARM equipped aircraft).
If you’re really worried about colliding with a glider, PowerFLARM is very affordable for the powered aircraft pilot, much more so than a Mode C or Mode S transponder is to the typical glider pilot flying an old wooden machine (and will give you much more benefit than a Mode C box would give the glider pilot). A very large proportion of the gliding fleet now has FLARM.
Robin_253 wrote:
This is a very good point! I don’t know how many countries, except UK, would allow flying in IMC in uncontrolled airspace
Since it is expressly permitted by SERA, all European countries should and most do. But a few try to limit it using technical tricks or national rules (that would be in conflict with EU rules and thus in principle void).
When towing gliders I have never heard about or seen anyone flying IMC. 3000 feet AGL is a lot in the mountains (above the highest peaks), so it’s not really a problem I would guess. There is an IFR or IMC rating, but there has been not much talk about that either. I don’t know what it consists of. Maybe that is “cloud” flying? Flying close to clouds, but not actually into them.
Getting high enough, into controlled airspace (13k feet) at Oppdal you do need transponder, or a special clearance to fly without.
Just a year ago (or two?) a glider pilot was killed here. He got into IMC (clouds) and lost track. He then jumped, but unfortunately he was above a mountain top, and met the ground before the chute deployed, maybe even when he was climbing out. He was found after several days, close to the plane. It’s not without danger, IMC in a glider.
“most of glider pilots are operating in IMC” – no, not at all. the issue is that most of glider pilots are simply not leaving lift when they think they are closer than 1000 ft from the base. They are climbing as much as they can and leaving only when they are actually loosing sigh of ground. Vast majority of them are not bold enough to keep climbing into the cumulus cloud. So they do not operate in IMC but they are not respecting VFR. But as i mentioned, we can´t change that.
