LeSving wrote:
The laws about this is for each local community (county) to use the means necessary to prevent/stop infectious diseases.
As in those powers are permanently devolved to local officials and the whole time they sit there with the powers to close business, schools, make you stay at home etc. if in their judgement infectious disease makes it necessary?
Wow!
LeSving wrote:
Interestingly, the legislator thought of that a couple of hundred years ago. The laws about this is for each local community (county) to use the means necessary to prevent/stop infectious diseases. The government has no saying in this. This has proved to work just fine. The problem being different regulations all over the country, which through government and the parliament has been “equalized” sort of.
Same situation in Germany – and at least here it leads to a significantly reduced acceptance of any measure in the population as many people always argue with the “if it is safe in Hamburg why shouldn’t it be safe Munich” and vice versa. It also lead to the paradox situation that for some time you were allowed to travel from Cologne to Frankfurt but not from Frankfurt to Cologne.
My take is not that some legislator with deep insights hundreds of years ago consciously decided based on scientific evidence what is best to handle such a situation. It rather looks like that the creators of the German constitution did lack the imagination of a severe nationwide pandemic and therefore thought “why should Hamburg people have a say what happens when there is a cholera outbreak in Munich?”.
I would expect that after this acute phase we have a serious discussion about how to adjust responsibilities for future pandemics.
Graham wrote:
As in those powers are permanently devolved to local officials and the whole time they sit there with the powers to close business, schools, make you stay at home etc. if in their judgement infectious disease makes it necessary?Wow!
Indeed. But the thing is there is always the government and/or the parliament, even the region (several counties) that can step in. Also, the actual power (as in muscle/gun force or whatever your preference is), is seriously small for each county, more or less non existent. Freedom/independence wise this is not an issue, as governmental powers would be. What initially happened was that schools were closed, county borders were closed etc by the local administration. Then the government had to step in, loosen up the measures, later also get some system into it, equalize it. This has caused lots of noise. Regions with literally zero infections having the same measures as regions flowing over with viruses.
Malibuflyer wrote:
It rather looks like that the creators of the German constitution did lack the imagination of a severe nationwide pandemic and therefore thought “why should Hamburg people have a say what happens when there is a cholera outbreak in Munich?”
That’s probably the case here as well. It’s also the speed of reaction, which is instantaneous on a local level. This law will undoubtedly be modified after Corona though, but the principle will stay put.
Malibuflyer wrote:
My take is not that some legislator with deep insights hundreds of years ago consciously decided based on scientific evidence what is best to handle such a situation. It rather looks like that the creators of the German constitution did lack the imagination of a severe nationwide pandemic and therefore thought “why should Hamburg people have a say what happens when there is a cholera outbreak in Munich?”.
I would expect that after this acute phase we have a serious discussion about how to adjust responsibilities for future pandemics.
Absolutely,.
Also in Switzerland the way things are being managed is a breakfast any self-respecting dog would refuse. The primary reason for that is the premis that the states are responsible to deal with outbreaks within their borders, which quite obviously is no longer the case here, as it is everywhere. Therefore it is very important that ONE organisation within government takes the lead and coordinates the efforts. This has not happened so far, which can lead to interesting phenomenon such as one canton having shops open, the other not, which clearly invites folks from the next one to carry the virus there. This very clearly is not acceptable and at the same time gets the people to less and less respect or understand the measures as they are half baked and have no apparent success because of this.
I would go even further and say that for pandemics of this magnitude, we need international binding law which can shut down whole continents if necessary without the possibility of single countries thinking they know better. But that is an illusion obviously, as no country is going to agree to this.
It is quite obvious that the way it has been handled, governments have lost the people´s will to participate and to work constructively to destroy this virus. Consequently, the pandemic will not go away in a very long time, vaccinations nonwithstanding.
There was an excellent article in the “Spiegel” today, an interview with a female virologist from Germany (Dr Brinkman?) who paints a picture what is going to happen if we continue as we do. Unfortunately I´ve lost it (pdf) as my main computer now is dead as a doornail because of a main board failure. Ah well. It never rains, it snows sleet.
Wow, that’s surprising stuff to learn.
Whether this power lies locally or with central government is not so much my issue, more the fact that it exists at all.
Prior to Covid-19 no politician or civil servant, whether part of local or central structures, had the power to order to me to remain at home, close my business, etc. for any reason at all. It didn’t matter if there was a pandemic, or what they thought might be necessary, they just simply didn’t have the power.
All this power in the UK has required special legislation.
Graham wrote:
All this power in the UK has required special legislation.
Huge difference in different countries! In Germany no (significant) federal law has been created or changed due to this pandemic. The laws have already been there for 80 years – it’s just the first time where we have a situation where they actually apply. Therefore at least here the power has always been there …
As an aside – where is MedEwok ?? Always really enjoyed his comments and insights here.
172driver wrote:
As an aside – where is MedEwok ?? Always really enjoyed his comments and insights here.
Agreed.
Prior to Covid-19 no politician or civil servant, whether part of local or central structures, had the power to order to me to remain at home, close my business, etc. for any reason at all.
That’s not quite so, though the difference is that previously I believe such public health measures have been undertaken on much more limited scales.
