hmng wrote:
- Where is the actual hard science to say that lockdowns like this make any difference at all? Where was the experiment done, whit a control group and all that science stuff?
I am a great supporter of having the data, but I think the maths at work here is more than clear, because whatever else may or may not be achieved, and as I said before, it is all about preventing the hospitals being over whelmed.
hmng, I’m not aware of anyone stating that 9/10 deaths attributed to COVID were actually due to something else as yet unspecified.
Fuji_Abound wrote:
I am a great supporter of having the data, but I think the maths at work here is more than clear, because whatever else may or may not be achieved, and as I said before, it is all about preventing the hospitals being over whelmed.
What is clear to me is that China locked people in their homes, and now every country is doing it because everybody else is doing it.
Why are hospitals not overwhelmed in so many other European countries, supposedly just days behind Italy?
Italy has been overwhelmed in previous years already, and Covid-19 attributed deaths are in line with deaths by influenza in bad years there.
kwlf wrote:
hmng, I’m not aware of anyone stating that 9/10 deaths attributed to COVID were actually due to something else as yet unspecified.
hmng wrote:
“On re-evaluation by the National Institute of Health, only 12 per cent of death certificates have shown a direct causality from coronavirus," https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/have-many-coronavirus-patients-died-italy/
The director of the Italian Civil Protection Service makes the point that the numbers being reported are with the virus and not from the virus
(at ~ 03:30 in the video )
But also, if Italy’s data is not giving good answers, any other countries that are showing excess mortality by respiratory diseases?
Hmng – I am not sure if I get your broad drift. Are you saying that there is some grand scheme for governments to grab a lot of power over their citizens, by faking the numbers?
You seem to be saying that the deaths would have occurred anyway quite soon, which may be true to a large extent, but how do you explain the medical staff dying also?
hmng wrote:
What is clear to me is that China locked people in their homes, and now every country is doing it because everybody else is doing it.
How are you sure 3000 is the correct death toll from China?
It seems to me like Iran claiming around 700 dead yet the satellites could see massive excavations for graves.
China blocked people in their homes and they starved to death, at least it seems most other countries let people out for essentials. This arguably puts people more at risk of spreading, but I think it’s preferable to forcing people to starve to death if they’ve not got enough provisions.
@Peter, no I don’t think any number are fake. As for government actions, I would not be surprised if some would take advantage of it to further some agendas or general population control (I’m sure many of us would be shocked, oh the horror, to find about such cases… ), but I do not believe in any great conspiracy to control the world population.
In fact, unlike, e.g. Brexit, where the mantra was about ignoring experts, now politicians are doing exactly what the experts say and what the general public is clamouring for.
Medical staff dying is a puzzle. Sure is heart wrenching. Seem to recall 13 in Italy. Deserves a close look. Is that enough for global panic?
Why are hospitals not overwhelmed in so many other European countries, supposedly just days behind Italy?
That’s a false premise. The hospitals are overwhelmed in parts of France, Spain and the UK but not overwhelmed in all of Italy. Everything is unnaturally quiet where I live and work. Exponential growth means that the numbers of people getting sick increases very rapidly so days count for a lot.
The word from London is that the disease is much more aggressive than expected and the ITUs are filling up fast. Certainly in the UK we test anyone hospitalised with a respiratory infection for COVID, so I think we would know if there was an epidemic of sick people who were testing negative.
I am tired of rising to your bait, and ought to be concentrating on other things. Scepticism is good and proper, and I think there are many questions that can be legitimately raised about how various governments are managing the outbreak. However, we should be honest with ourselves and other people. If we say ‘Let them die for the sake of the economy’ then that is legitimate, but let us be honest about how many people we are talking about. If I say ‘millions might die’ let me be honest and say that the estimates could be out by an order of magnitude. But when despite our best efforts, hospitals in many countries are being overwhelmed by an outbreak of COVID19 that has barely even started, let us not say that it is not so.
In the UK we had isolation hospitals, for infectious disease outbreaks.
Polio, smallpox, and the last one I remember in Scotland was the Aberdeen typhoid outbreak in 1963.
Use it or lose it. We got vaccinated, improved food safety, and the isolation hospitals were converted to other use.
PS. Did people starve to death in their homes in China?
kwlf wrote:
I am tired of rising to your bait
Sorry you feel like that, it means I’ve done something wrong. I’ll take a break and reflect.
kwlf wrote:
That’s a false premise on several counts. The hospitals are overwhelmed in parts of France, Spain and the UK but not overwhelmed in all of Italy.
Point taken.
Just finally, never can be repeated too much: I don’t want anyone one to die, let alone millions.
Thanks!
