Frans wrote:
Yesterday, I’ve had a talk with someone how just flew from Switzerland to France and back, without clearing customs on the French side. He said it worked flawlessly in both directions. Other pilot reports I’ve read on other forums or facebook, seem to confirm this.
The question is: which aerodromes in France? On-request customs aerodromes (like Annemasse, Montbéliard, Pontarlier, Besancon)? Or non-customs aerodromes (like, for example, Bellegarde or Oyonnax)?
Frans wrote:
However, I’m afraid the Italian financial police and border guards (Guardia di Finanza), won’t be impressed by some home-printed documents from my side. Even when the law is on my side, I simply won’t have any chance against those armed guys.
Agree. As long we don’t have a lot of positive reports from the Italian side, I would not dare it. Too much trouble looming. And no, I won’t be the one to try it first. But then I very rarely fly between CH and Italy.
AOPA Italy is totally sleeping over this.
Also, the PNR times on weekends are sometimes annoying, as some airfields require a PNR already on Friday, in case you want to leave or arrive during the weekend.
Indeed. Totally discouraging. However, since that is the Swiss side, I can’t see any changes to this coming.
Frans wrote:
In Germany, the EU 2020/877 rule makes life only easier for movements from/to non-customs airfields. If you land or depart however on an airfield with customs O/R, you still need to organize a PNR or PPR for it.
Exactly. The double penalty comes at airfields like Donaueschingen, where not only you have to the comply with a PN procedure (paperwork), but also pay them the respective extra customs fee….
Yes; these two concessions need to work with every runway in the EU.
Yesterday, I’ve had a talk with someone how just flew from Switzerland to France and back, without clearing customs on the French side. He said it worked flawlessly in both directions
He surely sent PN somewhere, many French airports are non-customs but they have an email address to send PN for private traffic (e.g. Megeve), it’s when you go to small strips where you need an answer to this question and unless you are from the corner it’s unlikely you would get that right…
boscomantico wrote:
The question is: which aerodromes in France? On-request customs aerodromes (like Annemasse, Montbéliard, Pontarlier, Besancon)? Or non-customs aerodromes (like, for example, Bellegarde or Oyonnax)?He went to Vesoul (non-customs) and came back via Pontarlier (customs O/R).
AOPA Italy is totally sleeping over this.Absolutely. AOPA Switzerland doesn’t do much either, except warning pilots and waiting for “experiences”.
However, since that is the Swiss side, I can’t see any changes to this coming.Correct. There are AFAIK no plans to change the regulations on the Swiss side.
He surely sent PN somewhere, many French airports are non-customs but they have an email address to send PN for private traffic (e.g. Megeve), it’s when you go to small strips where you need an answer to this question and unless you are from the corner it’s unlikely you would get that right…Megeve has customs 24 hrs PNR. Vesoul doesn’t have any customs procedures, so a PN is not required.
they have an email address to send PN for private traffic [ my bold ]
Unbelievable.
Private traffic?
Megeve has customs 24 hrs PNR. Vesoul doesn’t have any customs procedures, so a PN is not required.
Both statements are likely wrong
Megeve is not a custom/taxation airport, it’s not listed here but they do accept traffic with PN if “nothing to declare”
List_of_International_Union_Airports_283_29_pdf
Saying Vesoul or any other place (e.g. ULM strips) do not require PN because they do not have AiP entry, says NIL in AIP, or not in SkyDemon…is a nice trick, it won’t “butter no parsnips” if they did turn up with no PN !
Ibra wrote:
Megeve is not a custom/taxation airport, it’s not listed here but they do accept traffic with PN if “nothing to declare”Yes, that is more than clear to me. Apologies for the fact I didn’t add this fact to my post.
Saying Vesoul or any other place (e.g. ULM strips) do not require PN because they do not have AiP entry, says NIL in AIP, or not in SkyDemon…is a nice trick, it won’t “butter no parsnips” if they did turn up with no PN !Please post an official source for this statement. EU 2020/877 doesn’t include any PN requirements for flying from/to non-customs airfields. Only airfields that already had some kind of customs ‘services’ on PNR basis before (e.g. Megeve), might still require a PN, like German aerodromes with customs O/R status require up to today.
But thanks to EU 2020/877, no need for PN if the airport doesn’t require to do so
Isn’t that the gotcha in all this. This is central to whether certain countries (those with a fair number of GA runways) are going to adopt this without PN. Practically speaking, adopting this in say France would be very hard work for the police. The only solution I see, for airfields which don’t already have some police arrangement, is for them to set the PN at some silly value which suppresses traffic to a negligible level – like 24/48hr.
The UK is irrelevant to all this – brexit or earlier – because it uses the GAR form PN system, and the police have decades ago set up “flying squads” which sit in a local office and when they see a FP and/or GAR they look whether it is somebody “interesting” and if so (or if they feel a need to create work) jump in a car and meet them. It is an expensive system; my estimate for the total cost of 2 officers to drive say 20 miles is £1k-2k. But they are well used to it and it creates a lot of jobs, which are nicer than going down to the local council estate and interrogating somebody about why he chucked a brick through somebody’s car, or beat up his wife… It also requires almost zero IQ which is another bonus.
In France they often use a twin turbine heli which will cost around €3k/hr and most of that is additional to the UK police car driving direct cost which is negligible in comparison.
Can anyone see a problem in my reasoning?
The EU reg doesn’t actually say “zero PN”. It is silent on that. IMHO it is not reasonable to assume that the implementation will be “existing PN” for airfields which are currently PN, and “zero-PN” for all the “new” ones.
Please post an official source for this statement. EU 2020/877 doesn’t include any PN requirements for flying from/to non-customs airfields. Only airfields that already had some kind of customs ‘services’ on PNR basis before (e.g. Megeve), might still require a PN, like German aerodromes with customs O/R status require up to today.Might customs still show up without PN? Yes, they could. Even within the EU (e.g. Germany-France), customs officers are allowed to perform a random check on an occasional basis. But thanks to EU 2020/877, no need for PN if the airport doesn’t require to do so.
PAF/DGI in some places accept that things have changed since EU2020/887, however, they still want PN, then you can roam free France/Switzerland…
You are right, there is no legal requirement in French law for PN intra-Schengen from Switzerland to France with “noting to declare” (I recall something in EU AD/CU law about 24h notification but it assumes taxed marchandise is carried, EU 2020/887 does not talk about AD law just means of transport and no goods being exempt from taxation)
The only requirement in French law is to send is flight plan (Art 9, Arrete 2017), they are free to turn up…here is the fun part, they wanted flight plan sent by email 24h in advance directly to customs, sending FPL to ATC 1h before flight does not count, in other words, you are told: don’t wrestle in mud with pigs 
I would personally tick PN24h email to DGI plus 1h FPL to ATC and fly Switzerland to France, it works fine !
Sorry if the bellow is in French (sorry for Peter if screenshots are big), it gives you an idea how ATC FPL ( plan de vol ) requirement becomes PN: send us FPL by email…
https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/jorf/article_jo/JORFARTI000035871851
The EU reg doesn’t actually say “zero PN”. It is silent on that. IMHO it is not reasonable to assume that the implementation will be “existing PN” for airfields which are currently PN, and “zero-PN” for all the “new” ones.
You apparently haven‘t read (EU) 2020/877. Its essence is that the Zollanmeldung (the „PN“ to customs, if you will) is made by the act of actually crossing the border.
For anyone to interpret that one might have to give a PN for the PN is absurd.
Of course, you never know what customs authorities in the various country invent, but that is far fetched.
And even if they did… the most important thing is that ALL airfields are now available for flights between Switzerland and Schengen/EU countries (all of the surrounding ones!). Having to do a PN would be a PITA, but the end result would still be a huge improvement.
