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Are panel mounted avionics going to become obsolete?

Take this example GISNO. look it up it’s part of a SID departure I think from Frankfurt. I can’t find GISNO in my KLN90B. It’s not in the ENR section of the AIP. Still it was part of several flight plans I submitted and where accepted by flight planning systems

Sorry so did you file a waypoint that wasn’t in your database? Can easily happen with modern planning systems. Of course the controller was behaving badly but my concern was more with your comment:

He happily came back and mentioned (rather arrogantly) to take a close look at my map. (This is like trying to find a needle in haystack …
Well I folded the map open took a look and….gave up…;-) , as it is impossible to do that, when hand-flying. I have SD but you can forget to that when alone with an U/S A/P @FL140, I told ATC unable to look at my map as I am single pilot IFR and my A/P is not working, and further would appreciate a next existent way point…

It sounds like you were somewhat overloaded due to a rerouting and not having an autopilot. My point is only that you should normally have enough capacity to be able to look something up even while hand flying. Of course it is harder. Could it have been a spelling issue on the waypoint? In that environment I completely agree that the controller should have helped reduce your workload and it was not the time for a lecture on map folding.

Above FL200 things are different and more stable the lower airspace is where all the complexities are…

I fly through plenty of terminal areas and get rerouted all the time.

None of this is meant to be critical just help understand what was going on and what can be learned from it.

Last Edited by JasonC at 21 Oct 11:09
EGTK Oxford

Even airliners do that.

I think it makes a huge difference if you know the area and in 99% of the cases airliners are intimately familiar with the route. I’ve flown Stuttgart West-Belgium a couple of times now and I am very familiar with all the waypoints making it so much easier. Knowing that “direct Brussels” means “BUB”, knowing that SUXIM is the hand-over between German and Belgium ATC, knowing that Mackel is MAK and Olno is LNO gives you a major advantage. Heck, I even know which frequency is going to come when. ATC have a habit of assuming this familiarity unfortunately.

I agree Achim. They do assume familiarity. That is what I meant when sometimes asking for a spelling resolves the problem.

In my G1000, piper apparently enabled an option which does not load all of the waypoints on an airway. You can find them if you know via an undocumented function. It led to plenty of similar exchanges – direct XYZ. That isn’t on my flight plan. Yes it is, X Y Z. So we all have avionics quirks.

EGTK Oxford

It’s the consequences of flaws in flight planning systems which concerns me, which was the trigger to post…
Hereby I would like to conclude my input that probably I need better reading glasses or even better take a magnifying glass on board..
I think there is only one person who could assess (at this point) if I was mentally overloaded and am capable of holding my ATT and Heading yes or no and that is myself as I was alone JasonC… : I still have a log file it shows a rather straight line vertical and horizontal…well almost RVSM compliant

EBST
It’s the consequences of flaws in flight planning systems which concerns me, which was the trigger to post…

OK, I didn’t get that from your post.

I think there is only one person who could assess (at this point) if I was mentally overloaded and am capable of holding my ATT and Heading yes or no and that is myself as I was alone JasonC. I still have a log file it shows a rather straight line vertical and horizontal…well almost RVSM compliant

Fine. So long as you are happy with how it went I guess that is ok.

EGTK Oxford

What is interesting is that no route generation tool has ever generated a waypoint which wasn’t in my KLN94 GPS.

Never, not once.

It doesn’t matter whether the waypoints came from

  • FPP waypoint list, or
  • EuroFPL waypoint list, or
  • EuroGA-router or FPP route pasted into Flitestar and a plog produced in Flitestar

All the waypoints I have seen which were not in the GPS were ones issued by ATC and not on my filed route.

I think what may be happening is that some ATC, particularly German, have a collection of waypoints on their radar overlay, and when they want you to turn left 10 degrees, they find one which lies in about right place, and give it to you… I don’t think they realise that some of these are not in any enroute database.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

What is interesting is that no route generation tool has ever generated a waypoint which wasn’t in my KLN94 GPS.

autorouter can do that, especially in Germany We’ve had them remove duff waypoints by the dozen. Everything that’s in ENR 4.4 of the AIP should be found in your navigator plus waypoints used for procedures. The procedure only waypoints are not in all tools, particularly those that are based on the EAD (electronic AIP). SkyDemon is an example.

some ATC, particularly German, have a collection of waypoints on their radar overlay, and when they want you to turn left 10 degrees, they find one which lies in about right place, and give it to you

Indeed, they always prefer waypoints over headings, much less workload.

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