After rolling it around in my head for a while, I’ve concluded that EVs aren’t going to attract me for my personal use until they have enough range that I can use the thing for a full day without recharge. For a car that would mean about 700 miles range, after which I’d be ready to rest and would have time available for the slow recharge. The issue is the long time required to recharge, even more so than the limited range.
It’s quite interesting to see that many people discard an EV based on a user profile that includes a huge one-day trip. But that trip may only take place a few times a year, and the current battery capacity of EV’s basically covers 95% of the rest of the use. Silvaire’s requirement for 700 miles in one day without recharge it a good example. I personally would hate to drive that far in one day, did it once or twice in my early twenties and vowed to never do that again 
And I suspect that even Silvaire would make a few stops, maybe even forced by his better half And then he could use a Tesla supercharger and get another 200 miles in 15 minutes. That’s about the time for a pee and a coffee.
And even if the requirement is for an occasional mega-distance without wishing to depend on electric charging, one could retain an ICE car, rent one, loan one from a friend, or even steal one. 
And no, these high power chargers don’t really damage Tesla batteries it seems, certainly not if not charged to full capacity in blistering heat.
Sorry for the thread drift.
I think we’ve been round this one before, perhaps quite some time ago.
It’s about the options available. For those of us who are not EV evangelists, we are simply choosing the best tool for the job without prejudice. For most of us, EVs are expensive and quite limiting. I drive a diesel SUV which cost me about £7k five years ago, and will likely serve me for perhaps another ten doing my customary 6-7k miles per year. The purchase cost is amortising away into the noise and with relatively low mileage my fuel and maintenance costs are low. How can I justify a £20-30k outlay on an EV that’ll have a shorter range than my current ride, as well as being less useful for general cargo duties and probably won’t have any off-road capability?
aart wrote:
and the current battery capacity of EV’s basically covers 95% of the rest of the use
It’s not enough. People want 99.99% of their intended use covered. Same reason we all drive around in cars with five seats, even though 90% of the time we are the sole occupant and 95% of the time there are no more than two of us. Would you buy a car with one seat?
aart wrote:
one could retain an ICE car,
If you have the ICE car, why have the EV in addition?
aart wrote:
And then he could use a Tesla supercharger and get another 200 miles in 15 minutes. That’s about the time for a pee and a coffee.
It isn’t necessarily about going non-stop, but about not having to stop for some particular thing that takes time and you might not be able to get (power). Until some serious charging infrastructure is sorted out it simply won’t work as you describe. Motorway services will need 300-500 charging bays with 50-100 megawatt supplies to the site.
On our recent drive to and from Scotland we stopped a few times for the dog, to have a pee, change driver, etc. This was peak summer holiday season with the motorways and service stations full. We don’t get fuel at the services because it’s very expensive and we don’t need to (range) but it was interesting to see the EV charging bays. There were not many, they were full, and there were lots of people waiting to use them. People were tearing their hair out over the fact that they’d pitched up expecting to have a coffee, a pee and a quick charge (as you describe) but in fact it was going to be many hours before they could continue. People were phoning the hotels they’d booked saying they might be there at midnight and please don’t re-sell the room, etc. They were negotiating with each other to queue jump for a quick 20 mins on the charger so they could leave and make it to another one they’d found on some app, etc. Total chaos.
Graham wrote:
I find it intriguing and that there are folks on here who can’t / won’t acknowledge the fundamental challenge of energy density.
There is nothing to acknowledge. I mean really. I even showed a graph up there showing the physical absolute roof of current battery technology. There is no way to improve current technology more than 10-20 % at best. New technology may come, but how much better will it be? when will it come?. These are all well known facts. What is probably not equally well known is the price decrease each year. 10-15 % each year for Liion.
This can only go one way. All new cars will be EVs, sooner rather than later. Maybe a very few (utility, off road, military) will have little range extender in some form.
The same is happening with aircraft. It’s not that electric aircraft necessarily are better. But they surely will be much cheaper to operate within the constraints they do operate, and battery-electric propulsion also opens up other ways an aircraft can be designed (drones for instance). It’s also possible to make aircraft with an insane amount of power for a short duration (15-20 min). This will be developed into all kinds of odd stuff (racing, aerobatics and so on).
LeSving wrote:
This can only go one way. All new cars will be EVs, sooner rather than later.
If so, it would cripple the lives of many people who travel any distance regularly. Just as the ‘diesel is the future’ dogma came and went in Europe (leaving soot stained cities in its ill conceived wake) the EV thing will moderate after a while. Even politicians looking for a wave to surf will in time see the real world implications of their current direction.
but it was interesting to see the EV charging bays. There were not many, they were full, and there were lots of people waiting to use them. People were tearing their hair out over the fact that they’d pitched up expecting to have a coffee, a pee and a quick charge (as you describe) but in fact it was going to be many hours before they could continue. People were phoning the hotels they’d booked saying they might be there at midnight and please don’t re-sell the room, etc. They were negotiating with each other to queue jump for a quick 20 mins on the charger so they could leave and make it to another one they’d found on some app, etc. Total chaos.
Interesting. I’ve never heard or read about the total chaos you describe, but maybe I live under a stone and also haven’t left my bubble since COVID so no first hand experience. Anyone else in mainland Europe or the US who can shed some light on this from their perspective?
Then we may also want to consider the environmental factors more. In long/medium term, combustion engines will not be something anyone would like to use. The shift is coming sooner or later so we have to get used to new limitations compared to what we expect today.
A 4-seater with 5 hours of endurance 100% electric may not be possible under exactly the same conditions as we wish but we have to accept what is possible.
aart wrote:
Interesting. I’ve never heard or read about the total chaos you describe, but maybe I live under a stone and also haven’t left my bubble since COVID so no first hand experience. Anyone else in mainland Europe or the US who can shed some light on this from their perspective?
Whilst having no data on the number of electric car charging bays at motorway service stations across Europe, surely one can just work this out? My experience is only for the UK where I know that most service stations have a handful of charging bays. Does mainland Europe have hundreds at each one?
In the future, if any significant proportion of the population are using EVs then you’re going to need an awful lot of charging bays at service stations all across the motorway network, otherwise people will be waiting hours to plug in.
Look at how many petrol pumps are provided at service stations, then consider that (a) filling with petrol takes less than five minutes, and (b) most motorway traffic uses the range of the vehicle to avoid fuelling at service stations, due to high prices.
Now consider how many charging stations you’re going to need if (a) each vehicle is plugged in for perhaps an hour, and (b) some significant proportion of motorway traffic is compelled to stop and use them.
The chaos I saw was undoubtedly seasonal. There is presumably not much problem getting a charge on the Tuesday of the second week in February, or the middle of the night, or whenever. But for cars with 200-300 mile ranges to be widely used for long journeys, huge charging facilities at service stations will be required. The alternative, perhaps, is that people stop driving more than the range of the car in one day. Overnight charging, assuming it becomes available everywhere, would allow for that.
aart wrote:
Anyone else in mainland Europe or the US who can shed some light on this from their perspective?
Tesla driving impresarios here aren’t likely without another similar car for longer trips, and they use it. Otherwise, those who want to showboat their Tesla on a special route, maybe from LA to Vegas for the weekend, are catered to just as they were when the vehicle of choice was a V12 Jag with 225 mile range needing a gas station in the desert. But of course that’s not the real world of long distance US driving via Resume Speed, Iowa This guys trip report is enlightening, and it was touring around an area where Teslas are popular, with short daily legs.
Nothing less than 700 mile daily range between long periods of EV recharging works for most US buyers, if it was the car they’d want to use for long trips. More would be be better (I’ve certainly done 1000 mile + days) but I think 700 miles is the minimum if you wanted to sell EVs to US buyers looking for anything except a dedicated around town car. Until then everybody has at least one gasoline car too, and for long distances its likely a large car. They aren’t hassling at charging stations.
400-500 miles would probably work for a touring motorcycle, assuming it lacks full recharge capability in say 15 minutes or less.
In Europe many families have 2 cars, one to do the shopping and local trips the other, often bigger and for going on longer journeys. At present it is the shorter, daily trips which are mostly targeted by the EV market. And in some countries the EV industry is being quite successful in this area.
The UKs National Grid is in the process of paying nearly £8 billion for the UK’s largest electricity distribution network (WPD).
It could be a very clever move, not only allowing them to link smaller local renewable energy providers to their system but also to enable linking the grid up with users such as recharging points in towns or along roads.
For other businesses there may be problems. For instance is there was no requirement to provide fuel at motorway service stations, would there be a need for those service stations in the first place.
@Graham, I think most on here appreciate that there will be fundamental challenges for aircraft powered by electricity. Many of us, however also believe in the ingenuity of the human race to overcome problems. Just because a technology doesn’t exist today or is not advanced enough to do what needs to be done, does not mean that it would not be possible tomorrow. Space vehicles have orbitted Mars,the technology to do that did not exist, other than in someone’s eye 20 years before. Wilbur and Orville’s first flight was IIRC 30 metres. Your argument that the technology existed is not a very good one. The technology may well have existed but Wilbur, Orville and others had to adapt it and develop it for their purpose. And the technology for aircraft capable of flying 3 or 4 passengers over a range of 1000
miles may also well exist, today. It is just waiting for some clever people to adapt it and develop it for the purpose.
In the meantime debate is good but one also has to keep one’s sense of humour.
