dublinpilot wrote:
Whether it customs or immigration doesn’t matter all that much.
Patrick wrote:
That very thought lead the OP to pay a 1200 EUR fine…
I resent that comment, because it’s not true. If the OP had used the appropriate facilities, as my post suggest has always been required for a flight between Switzerland and France, they would have had no fine. It’s the thought that they could fly between the two and not inform the appropriate authorities that caused the problem.
dublinpilot wrote:
I think we all agree that a flight from Switzerland to France requires using an airport in both Switzerland and France that offer these facilities
Patrick wrote:
No, I disagree.
A flight from Switzerland to France requires you to clear customs. A flight from Schengen member Switzerland to Schengen member France requires no immigration. This is by no means a theoretical distinction only and it shouldn’t be dismissed lightheartedly.
What is the point in disagreeing and then going on to write the same thing? I said that they need to use an airport in Switzerland and France that offers these facilities, and you are saying the same thing, just separating them out.
I wish FlyingFish would elaborate onwhy he thought it was OK to fly from LSGG to LFEY (airfield that has neither customs or immigration)
on what ground French customs at Nantes fined him
He has in another post stated that he would base his Extra 400 at LSGG because it is a Port of Entry, but I believe part of the rationale was also that there is French customs/immigration on the field (that’s at least how I interpreted it). In that case he could have gone through French customs/immigration at LSGG prior to the flight to LFEY, and in that case wouldn’t that have been fine? (no pun intended)
Haha Aviathor I liked the unintended pun! 
I have disclosed this information at the request of another poster who wanted to understand why flying within the Schengen zone does require customs airports. See my post in its context. I have also disclosed the amount of the fine to help others become fully aware of the very real threat. Nantes fined me on the basis of violating customs law by entering french territory via a non customs airport.
One thing I can tell you is that I know several people who got fined under similar circumstances.
Not many will openly tell the story. I elected to do so for the benefit of others because I believe that this is a real cash cow for the french customs.
At the time I did this, I was based in LSGL, fed up of the hassle of landing at some airport where nobody ever cared about me and whatever I was carrying in the plane.
I used to do my “customs” landing at LFLX Châteauroux and it was a customs desert. Call it a test.
Interestingly, these days, the systematic checks I mentioned getting at the same LFLX Châteauroux involving a substantial delegation have nothing to do with goods.
I had the plane visibly FULL of (admittedly worthless) personal stuff but nobody ever cared or asked me the question “what do you have to declare”.
The only thing they did was scan my passport, every time.
They were always courteous and as we chatted about the absurdity of all this they said that their Region’s “Préfet” had given them the instructions to do so.
What this means is that the summary which Peter put together higher up on this page is being challenged.
Here we are flying within Schengen but coming from outside the EU and they don’t care about goods – they only care about checking persons.
And I confirm that Châteauroux Ops always declare my flights to CUSTOMS not to immigration police…
Go figure…
My advice : when flying into France from any other country, do not underestimate the threat represented by the various localised variants of Plan Vigipirate: always call Ops and make sure that whatever you intend to do is OK per the latest “Décret Préfetoral”. For example, last time I flew from Germany into Le Havre, Ops explicitly informed customs after I’d called and then emailed them flight details.
Just my two swiss centimes…
dublinpilot wrote:
I said that they need to use an airport in Switzerland and France that offers these facilities, and you are saying the same thing, just separating them out.
In my understanding in the original context “these facilities” mean immigration and customs. But you don’t need immigration, only customs for a FR<→CH flight.
Flyingfish wrote:
At the time I did this, I was based in LSGL
I did not realise it was from Lausanne until somebody else pointed it out.
Flyingfish wrote:
My advice : when flying into France from any other country, do not underestimate the threat represented by the various localised variants of Plan Vigipirate: always call Ops and make sure that whatever you intend to do is OK per the latest “Décret Préfetoral”.
Those measures are published by NOTAM as was the case in Colmar, Auxerre and a couple of other airfields. It is unfortunate that some Départements (counties) have decreed that customs/immigration was required also for Schengen flights, but afterall it concerns only a handful of airfields in France. Check the NOTAMs, keep you nose clean and you’ll be OK although I understand that “burned cat fears fire”.
Flyingfish wrote:
And I confirm that Châteauroux Ops always declare my flights to CUSTOMS not to immigration police…
Border policing and customs are often delegated to one unit. In Caen LFRK immigration is delegated to Customs. The same agents cover both the airport and the Ouistreham ferry terminal which explains why they require 24 hrs notice. Very possible they have the same arrangement in Chateauroux. The fact remains that when arriving in France from Switzerland, you need Customs – not immigration. I can still legally fly from LFPT or LFPN to LSGL because customs service is provided with PN.
Indeed. With respect to the complexity of these issues in a small geographic area, unique would be one way to describe it Past TBO would be another
Then again, when you are the world’s biggest economic bloc, even when the brits finally leave, do you really care about comments like this?
Flyingfish wrote:
I have disclosed this information at the request of another poster who wanted to understand why flying within the Schengen zone does require customs airports.
Aaaand, the answer to my question (which has no post # anymore, but it’s the second one here) after 8 pages is: it still doesn’t!
From a Swiss perspective, yes, you require customs, and you always have. But Schengen hasn’t become “irrelevant” and I thought (and still think) that your statement is FUD.
But thank you for providing detail on your experience. It certainly helps us to understand the issue you had, and will warn others to be careful when it comes to respecting customs procedures between EU and non-EU countries. I also think that you have been rather lucky with the amount of that fine.
Flyingfish wrote:
My advice : when flying into France from any other country, do not underestimate the threat represented by the various localised variants of Plan Vigipirate: always call Ops and make sure that whatever you intend to do is OK per the latest “Décret Préfetoral”.
Actually, the plan vigipirate has existed since 1978. What you mean is the state of emergency, which is now in effect for two years in France. It unfortunately gives the executive legislative powers, which brings about problems for citizens to get hold of the applicable laws. When I stated that this was unfortunate on PPL/IR, I seemed to be the only one taking issue with it though “because you have to understand the French”. As much as I despise those terrorist acts, I still think that by giving up our states of law and going into a state of emergency for two years, we actually give in to their goals. Better to improve executive means and to promptly deal with any legislative needs in those bodies who are responsible for balancing these things in a Democracy. Maybe the new French president will see more light, but of course anyone is afraid to remove the state of emergency and to be seen as “weak” due to populist paroles. My 2 centimes, you know…
But I still maintain that Schengen is still superior to any Décrét Préfectoral (which I would love to see an example of to see on what it would be based), and that it has not been suspended (at least I haven’t seen France cancel the Treaty), only border checks have been reintroduced. But that is a very different animal; it concerns those policeman who are tasked to set up checkpoints, not me as a citizen. If I see a NOTAM, that details to me what I have to do for such a border check, I will do it, but otherwise I will just file a flight plan and move freely between two EU and Schengen states. How are we supposed to know otherwise?
Rwy20 wrote:
be careful when it comes to respecting customs procedures between EU and non-EU countries.
And I would add between Schengen and non-Schengen countries as well. Bear in mind that there are EU countries that are not in Schengen. Croatia springs to mind although I think they are due to enter Schengen soon. The UK too, but they will soon no longer be in the EU either. You really need to know your political geography.
Rwy20 wrote:
If I see a NOTAM, that details to me what I have to do for such a border check, I will do it, but otherwise I will just file a flight plan and move freely between two EU and Schengen states. How are we supposed to know otherwise?
I completely agree. NOTAM and AIP are indeed the sources that are offered to us as pilots. We stick to them – we should be OK. Anything else is hearsay.
In my understanding in the original context “these facilities” mean immigration and customs. But you don’t need immigration, only customs for a FR<→CH flight.
Hi JnsV,
No, I meant whichever service is required. Obviously in this case it’s only Customs.
But what I meant about us dancing on the head of a pin, is that in practice it makes little difference. If the OP had decided to fly to an airport which offered customs and immigration facilities in France, they would have looked up the AIP and found the entry for Douanes/Police (no mention of immigration in French AIP!). There they would have found that they had to (assuming it was an airport of entry):
A) Do nothing so long as they arrived during certain hours, as customs & immigration are available during opening hours, or
B) Send details by Email/Fax or telephone directly to someone (often Customs or local chamber of commerce, or the airport authority), or
C) Contact ATC and advice of their flight in advance so that they can all the services.
This was for a pilot arriving from Switzerland to France, requiring customs only.
Now compare this to a pilot arriving into France from the UK or Ireland, where they are departing from inside the EU, but not inside the Schengen Zone. In this case the pilot needs the exact opposite. They need immigration, but not customs. However their course of action would be identical. They’d check the AIP and then make the exact same telephone call, fax or email.
Now compare this to a pilot arriving into France from the Channel Islands. The Channel Islands are outside the EU and outside the Schengen Zone, so they’d require both Customs & Immigration. Yet their course of action would be identical. They’d check the AIP and then make the same telephone call, fax or email.
In all three cases, they’d most likely be met by the very same people.
I’ve been met by customs/immigration/police on many occasions. But to date, I’ve never been met by two different agencies at the same time. One person does everything, and in every time that I can recall at present, it was a police officer (So not directly a customs or immigration officer!)
That’s what I mean about not needing to get too caught up on the details. In the end, in most cases, the actions are the same, whether it’s customs or immigration, or both, that you need.
I’d also go further to say that in most cases, unless you’re already familiar with the systems for that country, you should check with the airport. There are exceptions to all these. For example coming from the EU, to Ireland, the only people you need to inform are Customs and immigration have no routine notification for General Aviation. The complete opposite of what you’d expect (where you’d expect no customs checks, just immigration).
dublinpilot wrote:
However their course of action would be identical.
dublinpilot wrote:
In all three cases, they’d most likely be met by the very same people.
@dublinpilot: Absolutely! I think we can indeed agree that for practical purposes, in GA flying, the procedures will be the same.
What I (and others, I’d assume) were trying to say is that if you mix these two concepts up, you may run into a situation where you believe you’re save (i.e. “I’m within Schengen, so I don’t need to bother”) and then you end up with a massive problem and get fined be customs in the end. That’s why I (we?) had issues with the statement:
dublinpilot wrote:
Whether it customs or immigration doesn’t matter all that much.
But I guess we are actually on the same page here…
But I guess we are actually on the same page here…
I wasn’t suggesting that you can just ignore them! Just that for practical purposes it doesn’t matter all the much (most of the time) which one you actually need, as you don’t even need to specifiy which one you want. Follow the proceedures and you’ll the the appropriate service.
I think we are in danger of violently agreeing with one another 
