Actually, you are yourself quoting the best reason for having a glass cockpit or rather a good moving map: Airspaces are complex these days and any warning you get when you are about to bust one is good. You managed to come down in time, which avoided a bust.
As to consequences, I don’t know the practice of the LBA or the local authority in Germany. I don’t think you would get a license revocation but you would be required to submit a report and possibly get a fine. If you offend repeatedly, then further sanctions may well apply.
The most important thing is to be honest about it if something has happened. People who see the error oft their ways and are willing to listen to advise will most of the time get away with either a warning only or a smaller fine. People trying to hush up things or hide the facts and don’t admit their mistakes usually will be treated harsher by authorities and often enough rightly so.
NinerEchoPapa wrote:
How quickly and by what method would I know that I was in trouble?
Should I have been monitoring EDDH Tower and/or 121.5 too? Assuming I was being watched, would I have heard a call advising me to descend? (I was not in contact with Bremen FIS, only monitoring).
My thoughts: You should not be ‘monitoring’ a frequency unless it’s something like a TMZ – such as the TMZ to the south of EDDH between (e.g.) 4500 and FL100 or to the west between FL 75 and FL100 where you have to squawk 4641 and monitor Bremen Radar on the published frequency (unless you’re already talking to the owner of the adjacent controlled airspace – in this case, Bremen Information on 125.100, that is). That way, any controller quickly knows how he can contact you should he need to ensure separation between you and other IFR traffic under his care.
Let’s consider a busy frequency – for example Bremen Information on a warm Sunday afternoon, with plenty of traffic on the way back from the islands. Should the controller block a limited resource – the airwaves – trying to contact an unknown VFR traffic to warn said aircraft not to stray into his controlled airspace? Or should he utilise his resources to controlling those aircraft he knows are talking with him? After all, Bremen Information’s controller doesn’t know you are monitoring him, only by you talking to him would he know you are on frequency and then he’d assign you a squawk.
From my side, I usually only monitor two frequencies (that means I’m listening in on COM 2) – 121.5 during cruise and then my destination frequency (ATIS or circuit) when I’m 6 or 7 minutes out in order to hear which runway / approaches / hazards can be expected (parachutes, gliders, model aircraft) and also to help me build a mental picture of other aircraft in the area. Otherwise COM 1 has the FIS dialled in (or a suitable LARS frequency in UK) and I’m talking to them. These controllers don’t bite, why would you not ask for a traffic service to assist your situational awareness?
Mooney_Driver wrote:
As to consequences, I don’t know the practice of the LBA or the local authority in Germany. I don’t think you would get a license revocation but you would be required to submit a report and possibly get a fine. If you offend repeatedly, then further sanctions may well apply.
The LBA doesn’t get directly involved, as far as I understand it. The Bezirksregierung are the people who would be involved and they would only prosecute based on what they can prove. Usually they would request a statement from the transgressor and then determine what, if any, steps are to be taken. I say this because we had a couple of gents from the BR at our open day a few weeks back and we were discussing such issues and they have to prove a case is likely to succeed at court before presenting it for prosecution and that it warrants punishment – a simple (one off) infraction with no danger to other aircraft would likely not meet the hurdle to allow it to be prosecuted. The reason for this is that the BR just don’t have the resources to punish every infraction so they go after the serious ones….
My story (from an older thread).
https://www.euroga.org/forums/flying/497-lessons-learned-your-most-scary-flight/post/35639
Lots to choose from:
- landing on wrong airstrip country WA (GPS was rare then)
- wrong frequency at Sola….ground vehicle had to come out and get my attention
- landing wrong direction runway at Molde
- turning wrong way on takeoff at Aberdeen
- taking off from Fearn without contacting Tain range and getting very very close to a Tornado
- flying an aircraft straight out of maintenacd 50miles over water from Fort Lauderdale to Freeport with my family to discover half the engine oil splashed on the the underside of the aircraft
- many times forgetting to raise flaps after takeoff
- landing at Lumut and then seeing the cow on the runway…
- lots of other lesser errors…
Well further to my previous post back in August it happened. I had my first airspace bust.
It was my second flight from a new airfield in a new aircraft type (EDKB and only a PA28, but still…) and my first solo since being checked out. I had to wait quite a while for fuel, in the meantime the interior of the aircraft was heating up. After fuelling I started up and set up my GPS receiver and iPad with SkyDemon. Both of them had been sat in the sun and overheated as a result. Not the best start. I continued on to my run up in the hope that they will have cooled down sufficiently. A few minutes later and it’s my turn to take to the holding point with both iPad and GPS receiver still not functioning.
I decide to press on as I have my VFR chart and SkyDemon on my iPhone anyway. I get airborne then remember that my planned route takes me pretty close to some controlled airspace. By the time I get SD going I am 400ft and one mile into Cologne’s class D, which begins at 1500ft. I immediately descend to below 1500ft and because I am so task saturated and way behind the aircraft at this point I don’t call Cologne to mention it.
Back at base later that evening I call the tower and explain. The friendly controller said they had no record of it and that it wasn’t a massive issue but of course to try and avoid it in future, and thanked me for my call. That particular piece of airspace, he said, was only really essential when runway 06 is in use (which is rarely) but the Typhoons from nearby Nörvenich do sometimes use it. He was far more laid back than I was expecting.
There are numerous things I learnt from this, not least to make sure all the tools I have at my disposal actually work before take off and if they don’t, have a contingency planned on the ground before I even get to the airfield. Being flippant and relying purely on a VFR chart to navigate complicated airspace in the early stages after take off isn’t ideal especially when all villages and industrial areas look identical.
At least now I know for sure what the ceiling around the area is now, I just learnt the hard way when simply looking at the map would’ve obviously been the preferable choice.
The other lesson that you might lean from this, is that you should never feel pressured to take off by ATC, simply because you’ve reached the front of the queue. It’s natural to feel that ATC is pushing you to take off. But in reality, they have no clue that you want to do anything other than take off, and they aren’t putting any pressure on you whatsoever.
If you feel that you need more time (eg to sort out your GPS issue) then just tell them that you’ll need a few more minutes.
In some airports they can route the traffic past you and you don’t lose your place in the queue. In others, you might have to enter the runway and exit it at the next exit point, and join the end of the queue. Often that time is exactly what you need to sort out your problem!
ATC really have no issue with you asking for more time. Professional crews do it all the time. So there is no need to feel pressurised into taking off just because you’ve reached the front of the queue. It’s much easier to sort these problems, or at least come up with a work around (eg booting up SD on your phone and getting a GPS fix) before taking off.
Personally, I won’t take off without a GPS fix, unless I’m flying in very familiar airspace. If I’d reached the front of the queue, without a GPS fix, I’d tell ATC that I need a few extra minutes.
A very good point dublinpilot and one I always try to keep in mind. I must admit, however, that in this case EDKB is not controlled so it was totally my choice to get airborne when I did.
I forgot the spare aircraft keychain in the bagagge door of my TB20, During a ferry flt after purchase with all origanl aircraft documentation in the hold departed from Sion to Hungary. The door was closed, but durig the flight the key, weathervaned, and opened the lock, but the door kept closed. During touchdown at Samellek, the door opened, and when taxid to the ramp, the marshaller came to my window and asked: Did you keep it open during the whole flight, or did it just happen? Asked : What?
The door- he replied. I was shocked…and lucky. I lost all the key on the keychain but the doorkey was in the position. The paint was damaged due as the keys hit the door until they flew away…
There are so many! I don’t want to compound them by mentioning them in public, except for one, which might be helpful to others.
It is a mistake that extended over months and was repeated on multiple flights: I mis-identified a leaky fuel tank.
I once landed in Samos and refueled with 230 liters (my tanks hold 220 liters). I was convinced that there was theft going on (that the pump was not being reset to zero before a new refueling), but I didn’t make a stink because I was in a hurry. So after discussion the bill was cut to 190liters and I went on my way.
The reason I “knew” there was no leak is because I had recently tested the plane—filled the tanks, flown x distance and refueled. The fuel flow meter and refueling amount matched perfectly. I had actual done this a few times because I suspected a leak. The problem was that the leakage was gradual (about 2-4 liters a day—although temperature and fuel level could affect the rate) so the fuel level would drop over time but not immediately. Flying in places where AVGAS is not available and letting the plane sit was a recipe for problems. The issue is compounded in the Rallye by the wing dihedral and outboard positions of the fuel caps, which makes using a stick to measure levels impossible (something I always do when flying Cessna).
What finally got my attention was the smell of fuel in the cockpit (something I posted about) followed by stains on the fuselage. It is strange they did not appear sooner. Unfortunately, in the Rallye, you have to remove the wing to look at the tank. My maintenance organization (now former) identified multiple leaks and fixed them at quite a price.
Except, they didn’t do a good job. I had to do the same thing over (this time, it appears, for good) at another shop. The second time around I caught on to what was going on much more quickly. But I figured it out a long way from home.
The lesson for me is to pay attention to discrepancies and keep probing until you get to the answer. Anything weird in a plane is weird for a reason.
