My PPL training usually dealt with how to enter and exit a control zone correctly (and quickly), always assuming you wanted to get from A (outside the CTR) to B (inside the CTR).
But what about a flight where you want to take off inside the CTR and then stay inside it for most of your flight, without doing traffic circuits, then land back at your departure airport inside the CTR. How do you go about it? How do you get permission from ATC to loiter inside their CTR? Do you just ask on startup? Do you file a VFR flightplan beforehand?
To make this question less abstract, take this low-quality image of the Hannover EDDV CTR:
Now if I wanted to take off in EDDV and then do a sightseeing tour around the city centre, basically overflying and orbiting the Neues Rathaus, Maschsee and various other sights, how would I do this in practice? The fact that the city centre is not in any approach path, neither visual (those all just follow the Autobahnen) nor instrument probably helps to make this proposition less of a problem for Hannover TOWER. Still, having learned to fly on a small GA airfield I always got the impression that you are supposed to leave a CTR as quickly as possible. But I don’t think there is a formal restriction for loitering inside the CTR, as long as ATC can accomodate you, right?
And, to take this specific example further: If I am orbiting around the city centre, I might just leave the CTR for a few seconds. Do I need to request permission to re-enter then if I only stray away for a few hundred meters and always remain on the TOWER frequency?
Sorry if this whole topic is boring or stupid, but I am genuinely curious. I’m fairly certain some of my friends in Hannover would love to see their hometown from above, so this is not just a theoretical question. And it can be applied to most other cities with a nearby airport with a CTR.
Reply applies toGermany only:
How do you get permission from ATC to loiter inside their CTR?
Ask.
Do you just ask on startup?
One doesn’t usually ask for start up on VFR flights. Just ask during you call for taxi.
Do you file a VFR flightplan beforehand?
No, doesn’t help. However, since SERA, it legally “creates” a flightplan when you call GND / TWR and ask for a clearance.
The question indeed is in how far your flight might interfere with other arrivals and departures, especially IFR. If it does, and if the airport is busy, then TWR might not approve your request at all.
That’s why it might make sense to make a telephone call to the TWR before the flight and ask whether your request is “approvable”. In certain cases, it might be possible to agree on a specific timeslot (i.e. when the airport is not busy).
But in many other cases, all this is not required. Take Nürnberg for example. Whilst the city is within the CTR, loitering over the city does not interfere with IFR traffic and your request (on the radio) will always be approved, no matter what the traffic situation is.
In the Hannover case, I would think the same, as – just like in Nürnberg – the runways are west-east and the city is south of the airport. TWR might ask you to stay south of the A2 at all times.
This is highly airport specific, you have to ask local pilots and ultimately ATC. Often there are standard routes for sightseeing (what is there to sightsee in Hannover??? 
). In Germany it is typically no problem to loiter in the control zone (provided it’s not Frankfurt), just ask ATC.
In Germany you do not need to file a flight plan but ATC will automatically create one for you but that doesn’t concern you.
achimha wrote:
This is highly airport specific
Agree, but it may also be dependent on the controller. Here at ENVA the ATC wants us to call by phone up front for every single flight that starts here and ends here. If you fly entirely inside the CTR or not is of no difference. When you call, you say where you want to go (ie file a flight plan in practice, only verbal). When flying out, and not landing here at the end of the flight, they don’t expect us to call, only request clearance on the radio when starting up. That is the official version of how the ATC wants it. From time to time though, some controller have their own ideas, and could say, the next time please file a flight plan or something like that (which of course is ignored and forgotten a minute later 
)
At other places, I really don’t know what the ATC expect, but just use the same procedure. It’s seldom local flights at other places though (except at ENOP, but that’s in G anyway).
I would tell ATC more precisely where I want to operate and what altitude. If you will stay either side of the extended runway centerline at a suitable altitude, it should be OK, but crossing the extended runway centerline will be more problematic, depending on how close to the runway and how high you propose to do that.
In the US I could do circles overhead KSFO (at 2000’ IIRC) while airliners were departing and landing below. They normally won’t let you do that in Europe.
When I was in Norway in the beginning of this month I had to circle (hold) on downwind at 1500’ at Bergen (Kokstad) for about 10 minutes while airliners were landing and departing, and there was another VFR circling further out
MedEwok wrote:
Sorry if this whole topic is boring or stupid, …
Why would that be stupid, these are things not normally taught to PPL students, especially if the training is done at an uncontrolled airfield.
As the others said, it’s a simple matter of talking to ATC. Just tell them in plain language what your intentions are (there is no proper ICAO phraseology for that kind of flight anyway). Most important: Pick a quiet time of day for this kind of flight (afternoon hours for example, ideally Sunday afternoon), otherwise you will spend lots of your flight time orbiting in places where you don’t want to be. And keep your transmissions as short as possible because the TOWER frequency of an international airport can get busy at very short notice. I have witnessed more than one go-around by an airliner because a “loiterer” telling everyone the story of his life kept the frequency busy for long enough that TOWER couldn’t get the landing clearance through. Also know the local features and small town names well. When you are told to orbit over “Großburgwedel” not higher than 1500 and you don’t know where to look for that on the map it can get difficult. The same if asked for your present position.
NB: One more thing: Many tower controllers at German airports fly themselves in their free time and will understand your intentions very well. Your chances of getting one of those on the radio are always good!
Over the city the same “glide clear rules” still apply
Peter_Mundy wrote:
Over the city the same “glide clear rules” still apply
We never had that rule in Germany! Now with SERA it might be different though, well worth chekcking… Anyway, I guess it is a matter of common sense and self-preservation to always leave an option for a forced landing, if at all possible.
What I find striking is, once again, the difference between flying in Germany and (e.g.) UK. As an example, I’ve flown to Cologne and wanted to circle over the centre, taking pictures of the Cathedral at 2000 feet and even though Runway 14 is in use, they have never had a problem with that – once, I was asked to remain between 2000 and 2500 feet because they had an Archer below me at 1500 – 2000 feet….
Now, in contrast, take Bristol. I’ve frequently requested permission to enter controlled airspace and fly along the River Avon from VRP Avonmouth at 1500 feet, routing to the Suspension bridge and then departing to the north. Out of 7 requests only once was this granted. The typical response:
‘Remain Clear of Controlled Airspace due to controller workload’.
I often wonder what is with Bristol controllers that, travelling north to south (or reverse), they demand you remain OCAS and squeeze you into a MiG Alley between Clevedon and Cardiff’s controlled airspace rather than be as accommodating as (e.g.) Cologne. When flying with friends, they love the feeling when I take them over international airports such as Düsseldorf or Cologne, allowing them to see the liners taking off and landing below yet major UK airfields seem to treat GA as if we have the plague….
what_next wrote:
We never had that rule in Germany!
If you are talking about the rule to fly at such a height that in the event of an emergency nothing bad will happen to people or property, this rule was also in ICAO’s Annex 2 and is in the SERAs too.
