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TB10 Adding P2 Toe Brakes

Our group/syndicate is looking at a TB10, which is perfect in many way except for the omission of P2 toe brakes which consensus says makes it unsuitable for further flight training/examining (at least in the UK).

Does anyone have any experience of retro-fitting these to a TB10 and importantly the cost to do so?

I would say it is unsuitable for lots of things, not just flight training. Basically it cannot be landed from the RHS on anything but quite a long runway.

How old is it? The early TBs, especially TB9s and TB10s, had spar corrosion issues. That is far more important because it will de facto write off an old plane.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

I would say it is unsuitable for lots of things, not just flight training. Basically it cannot be landed from the RHS on anything but quite a long runway.

Yes, we are only thinking of instrument training, not PPL.

Peter wrote:

How old is it? The early TBs, especially TB9s and TB10s, had spar corrosion issues. That is far more important because it will de facto write off an old plane.

It’s very early, apparently before the spar issue appeared but of course we will be having a pre-buy with a TB specialist to look for this specifically.

Commonly used Socata parts are generally available but the less common ones can be a problem. And airframe parts (for any brand) are not cheap so I would expect this to be no less than 4 figures.

In this case I would make sure everything is in stock before agreeing to buy the plane. I use Troyes Aviation in France for all parts; they provide a good service. I have a copy of the latest (2005) MM CD if you need it.

An early 1980s TB needs the mother of all prebuys – especially if it has ever lived outdoors. Whenever I have been asked on my opinion on some of these I have always told the buyer that he will spend a lot of money on it, and sure enough when he bought it he did spend a lot of money on it Lubrication (using grease, not oil) is key to a decent mechanical life and most maintenance companies don’t do it because it is time-consuming.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

I don’t know how accurate this is but I was talking to a maintenance engineer about Socata parts. He reckoned that back about 2005 an Aerospatiale factory (for want of a better word) was set up in the USA, and from then on, all parts for the TB9, TB10 and TB 20 were made there.

France

I have never heard that before. If it is true, they have kept that really quiet.

There are various stories going around regarding Socata parts e.g.

  • everything is still available (I am sure this is not true, because they told me so, adding that they have a programme for buying up smashed up planes and parting them out, and I have had obviously used parts from them, with perfect EASA-1 forms of course)
  • only bought-in parts are available i.e. the Tarbes-manufactured bits aren’t (they told this to a visitor, who used to be here, several years ago, but then Socata denied the conversation even though he is a fluent French speaker)

In practice everything seems to be coming through, eventually, but I bet you that if you smashed the composite roof, beyond repair, that would be the plane written off. Items like that they will simply not be making.

Due to coronavirus there are reportedly long delays currently.

The vast majority of regular TB service parts are bought in and resold, with a ~10x markup. They also have stocks of a lot of Tarbes-made stuff.

The TB parts business is worth millions a year so they will keep it running.

They have / have had a factory in Morocco.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Whiskey_Bravo wrote:

Yes, we are only thinking of instrument training, not PPL

I’m not clear on why right seat toe brakes are considered necessary for advanced training of a licensed pilot. If, in contemplating training a pilot from the right seat, I’m not confident that they can maneuver on the ground, and stop as needed on the runway without my participation, I have greater concerns than just instrument training them.

I realize that does little to assist with the original question. If a factory kit of parts can be installed, that would be the way to go. doing this as a mod would be silly expensive relative to the benefit. The only other system which comes to mind, would be that which early Piper Cherokees had, a single handle under the instrument panel, accessible to both pilots, which applied both brakes simultaneously. It was crude, but worked (perhaps somewhat dependent on the very positive nosewheel steering of Cherokees!).

My second flight ever is an Aztec was night Montreal to Toronto, with six people aboard. My senior pilot thought it would be a good training opportunity for me as it was a nice night, and benign conditions. Except that part way along the route, things changed, and we encountered some airframe ice. ‘No problem, the Aztec was fully di-iced, and managed it well. Other than to say that as we arrived to Toronto, the windshield was still iced over, other than for the heated plate in front of me. My senior pilot said: "Well, I sure hope you can land, ’cause I can’t see and I can’t stop – and with six people, we’re not changing seats!". It all went just fine…..

Home runway, in central Ontario, Canada
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