Menu Sign In Contact FAQ
Banner
Welcome to our forums

ADS-B technology and compatibility (merged thread)

I can see you but you can’t see me

Well, for as many years as it takes for

  • ADS-B OUT to become mandatory in the airspace you are flying in (will never happen for VFR in Class G), and
  • sufficient # of pilots spend the 4 or 5 figures to get equipped with ADS-B OUT (maybe pushed via another avionics refit)

all you will see is

  • FLARM emissions (almost entirely the gliding community, and only a tiny % of that in the UK)
  • Mode C/S without azimuth (IMHO not very useful)
  • airliners and high-end bizjets (which are almost entirely in CAS anyway)

I know I am pessimistic on this but if you look at the “Mode S wars” (about 3000 quid, max) they will be tiny compared to any “ADS-B wars” that might come.

So adoption is going to be as slow as is legally possible.

I just cannot see the point of ADS-B for GA below FL200 (almost no traffic) and above that it won’t do much because there is almost no traffic and what there is is under tight radar control. The place one really needs “TCAS” is OCAS, and in the UK specifically below 2000ft. I don’t know about German PPL flying habits; maybe they fly higher than 2000ft. In France almost nobody seems to.

FLARM is probably the most relevant thing here.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

The gliding FLARM take up is without doubt quite high with the high performance competition gliders, these are the primary danger to most GA aircraft, on a good gliding day these range far and wide, are very hard to see. As the cost and size of these comes down the take up will increase, another reason for the increase in gliding FLARM take up is that it enables glider pilots to see if the other gliders are going up and so were the lift is !

The TRX-1500 and associated mode S transponder ( and the Trigg ) are ADS-B capable at reasonable cost, some of these have a blanket ADS-B certification or can be fitted to Annex 2 or homebuit aircraft without too much expence.

It is clear that NATS & the UK CAA see getting low cost ADS-B onto all types of light aircraft as a safety objective worth pursuing and the trials that are about to start will no doubt encourage low cost equipment to be built and the take up rate will increase.

Meanwhile the myopic luminaries in Cologne think it is a good idea that well proven equipment requires an STC for each type of aircraft it is fitted to, there is no technical reason whatsoever for this stance so I am forced to think this is driven by a total lack of technical knowlage and a job creation agenda, the only thing that is for sure EASA is not driven by any agenda that takes air safety into account when it comes to the ADS-B issue.

On good soaring days last summer there were hundreds of gliders coming up using FLARM on FR24 in the UK. Right now (a sunny but cold day) the Open glider Network shows about 30 in the UK.

I suspect the equipage on the UK gliding fleet is more than a trivial percentage.

EGEO

I have persuaded myself. Just ordered a PowerFlarm portable. I will report back on how much it can see.

EGEO

2-3 years ago I borrowed a FLARM receiver and flew with it around the UK for maybe half a year, and didn’t pick up a single target.

However, to be fair, I fly mostly on weekdays, and when VFR I fly as high as CAS base permits and if possible VMC on top where there aren’t likely to be any updraughts (away from mountains etc).

Maybe things are changing.

But the midair stats don’t support gliders-on-GA as a big risk. Most midairs are GA-on-GA and near airfields, or in unusual situations e.g. a formation flight on which visual contact is lost.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

But the midair stats don’t support gliders-on-GA as a big risk. Most midairs are GA-on-GA and near airfields, or in unusual situations e.g. a formation flight on which visual contact is lost.

I’ve had enough close encounters with gliders to never want to go without FLARM again. For me it’s more important than TAS. Gliders come in bulks, they are white under white clouds and they fly circles. Very bad combination.

I’ ve been using Powerflarm since years now and got better results in terms of traffic detection range using the internal flarm antenna (article no.: 1.0.0.0027) for €39,90

Last Edited by nobbi at 18 Feb 08:58
EDxx, Germany

I have the same antenna mounted inside my aircraft. Very rarely my PowerFLARM misses traffic that ATC see.

This midair report has just come out, and it mentions this trial.

An interesting statistic in there; more than I thought


However, the nontransponding community – in the UK, at least – is mostly nontransponding intentionally and they won’t be installing ADS-B ever.

This is interesting too – the target size is 1 degree with just 4 seconds to go

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

115 USD ADS-B receiver

As seen here:

http://www.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/3fscia/the_11390_adsb_receiver_for_foreflight_or_pretty/

Peter we are waiting for your similarly priced 8.33 solution :-)

Sign in to add your message

Back to Top