The reason why UL/LSA costs 150k+

There are many reasons why people cannot get a Class 2 medical and an LSA medical is not much different to the Class 2 here in France
They both require an AME.
@LeSving you keep banging on about the 600kg MTOW for ULM. The French ULM association, along with the Belgians, I believe, have ruled this out, although here it has been increased to 500kg recently.
Most ULM owners cannot afford a Cirrus or its operating costs and yet that is still one of only a few certified with a parachute. Nearly all ULM’s here have the parachute.
A ULM pilot here in France does not need a PPL but to fly an RV he does.
S/he can get a ULM licence in very few hours, about 10, I think, if starting from scratch and 1 if you have a PPL and you get the licence when the instructor you fly with decides you are ready.
In France there is a large ULM community with well over 1000, zero landing fee, zero PPR, small airfields dotted around to add to the 500 or so CAP that the ULM pilot can use.
There is no annual/bi- annual tests or check rides for either the pilot or the aircraft.
Being so light a ULM can be pulled out of the hangar with ease to go for a quick evening flight, whereas pulling out the DA40 might get you thinking, can I be bothered?
No need to keep a pilot’s log or aircraft logs unless you want to.
If something is wrong with the aircraft you can fix it yourself or take it to someone who knows how to.
The majority of ULM owners not paid anything near €150,000 for a new aircraft. As in the certified world there are choices. Here there are 6 categories of ULM from the flexwing to the 3 axis and includes autogiros and helicopters. Those who want to spend the money, and there are more than you might think, for say the W9 Dynamic or the Pioneer do so with eyes wide open, and it does help that there are often good financing or leasing deals to be had.

Thanks Lesving.

I think Gallois has a point, at least for France.
Yes, ULs are sold to people who want to fly with no contraints. Learn quick, make a check, turn the key and fly. Just freedom to fly.
Certified GA doesn’t work like this today, either in clubs or private.
Some of those people have quite a lot of money. They can afford a 100-150k UL with EFIS and leather seats without selling the Riviera appartment. But they wouldn’t want to be bothered. And France offers plenty of destinations to fly to, with just a UL license (Corsica, Belle-Ile etc…). The kind of places where they go for holidays.
They come cheap to run ? Great ! So they can still go to Bali or the Caribbean every winter when the UL sleeps.
These people are for the vast majority not technical people, because technical jobs don’t pay as much. If Dynamic or JMB offered a go-to-and-land-at-destination, these people would buy it with their eyes closed.
Most wouldn’t be interested in an IR, even if it was cheap, because it is a lot of homework, self discipline and constant proficiency.

People with normal wages (flying budget 2-3k per year) in France today have 2 means of flying :

• cheap ULs
• PPL in a club and building/buying a homebuild (like a Pottier, Jodel, Gazaile etc…). These can be built for 15k (!) and, I mean, do fly for some time

Here, RVs are luxury planes here because both a lot of time and money to build one. No wonder why so many are ex-Air France pilots. You can’t build any modern kit planes for less then 100k. Like Colts (not the planes), you can only take one from its owner’s cold hand

The GA “market” is definitely different on both sides of the pond.

In the US, plenty of people take on flying because it is sophisticated, demanding, technical and potentially dangerous. They are proud to be able to fly a LOC approach to minimums (sometimes), to help with their annual, have their hands dirty. They have money, and have technical backgrounds or interests. Building a plane is seen as an educational challenge, not a hurdle to bear with. People with technical backgrounds seem to make a much more comfortable living and can afford to buy/build a plane. 100k is not a big problem, 200k is doable with some efforts. Some might not agree but this is what I think, after months of reading/thinking about this.
Used RVs are a solution for cost-effective flying, because Avgas is cheap, and the fleet is large enough.

In the US, plenty of people take on flying because it is sophisticated, demanding, technical and potentially dangerous. They are proud to be able to fly a LOC approach to minimums (sometimes), to help with their annual, have their hands dirty. They have money, and have technical backgrounds or interests. Building a plane is seen as an educational challenge, not a hurdle to bear with. People with technical backgrounds seem to make a much more comfortable living and can afford to buy/build a plane. 100k is not a big problem, 200k is doable with some efforts. Some might not agree but this is what I think, after months of reading/thinking about this.

I think that describes most of the European IFR community also. Look at EuroGA

Peter wrote:

I think the #1 reason is the community

I do agree on this. After the first several years with a PPL so far, I noticed that (in Germany) the UL community is a world on its own. There is not so much cross-community-contact between UL and ‘certified’ pilots (LAPL/PPL/CPL) in my opinion. I’ve seen people buying an expensive VL3 or so, but those people are only playing ‘inside’ the UL-community and mostly have only an UL-license. There are also a lot of prejudices on both sides, as like between pilots of powered aircraft and glider pilots.

At the moment, buying an airplane does not fit my financial situation yet and I can rent certified airplanes (HK36, DA20, C172, DR400) for a fair price with good availabilty, so there is no need to buy in short terms. But if I would consider an airplane, I would definitely never buy an 150k+ airplane which is just an UL. For that price, I expect something which can handle at least IFR.

Maybe if your lady notices the leather seats and beautiful paint, you will reconsider. Once talked about the chute she will have chosen for you

The problem is most ‘plane’ pilots never flew an ‘UL’ and vice versa.

It all depends on what you like to do. I fly both, and for my mission profile, I cannot see a single reason to rent a Cessna while I could rent an UL. The only planes I still rent are Extra’s or Pitts for aerobatics, for all other flights I prefer ultralights.

They are much more fun to fly, more powerful, more agile, more modern & much cheaper to rent.
I agree a Bonanza is more comfortable, and if you fly 3h-4h flights all the time in IFR weather it’s the best choice for sure.

In Belgium you can rent an old C172 for 175 Euro / hour (115kt on a good day) or a new JMB VL3 for 130 Euro / hour (140kt), what’s your choice for your weekend flight just for fun?

Some more facts:

• You can buy a 180k ultralight 2nd hand for 130k (after 3-4 years), it will maintain it’s value VERY well, so after 5 years you can probably sell it for the same price.
• In Belgium a lot of UL’s are owned by 2 people, in this way, the initial investment/person is probably the same as an old airplane, but with no unexpected costs for years and minimal operational costs.
• You can indeed buy a Mooney or a Bonanza for a lower price, and use the extra budget to fly it, but not for very long.
• The retracts might not seem as strong as a Bonanza, but the weight of the plane is <600kg so it’s not comparable.
• I fly on a rough grass strip and so do 20 other ultralight planes on our airfield, without any problems. I’ll go to any grass strip >300m.
• When I fly to France or Italy I have about 50% more possible airfields to go to compared to airplanes.
• In our clubhouse, Beechcraft owners are always complaining about the fuel price and discussing about ROP vs LOP, UL pilots are discussing about the next destination, south of France or Italy :D
• My UL consumes 16liters at 135kt, you can see (part of) the range circle, with 100 liters of fuel in the picture below:
  

The main reason I have Piper,not some ultralight is the fact that I can fit my family into Piper

, but I couldn’t do that with UL.. Also, sometimes you just need some space – a picture from our trip to Nordkapp with Eurostar and CTLS, Piper had to carry most of our luggage + a canister of fuel for Eurostar :)

jvdo wrote:

The problem is most ‘plane’ pilots never flew an ‘UL’ and vice versa.

Thats true for sure. I also never did fly officially an UL. The few times I did, it was in Switzerland, where they don’t have a UL-classification. The new AC4, and also the C42, flies as an LSA-aircraft, for which a LAPL/PPL is mandatory. You can also log normally the hours as SEP-time.

The most German aeroclubs don’t have an high-end UL. The most fly with a quite booring C42, which was nice to try to fly once, but it would never be a plane I would consider serious cross-country flights with. The Swiss AC4 is a more decent variant, which was more modern, fun and good for sightseeing, but still too slow for serious cross-country. For sure, the JMB VL3 is a nice plane and perfect for cross-country, but then you need to own one, as it is almost nowhere available for rent. And to buy a UL for 150k+ as an individual… hmm… Maybe I could imagine it, when it would be possible to fly it as LSA with PPL and more than just VFR-day-only. And without restrictions trough entire Europe of course.