Menu Sign In Contact FAQ
Banner
Welcome to our forums

So much bad terminology...

And a flight plan includes the ADEP and ADES which is why you need to mention those elements to TWR/APP at first contact.

This is not true. These are air filed flight plans, where you put “AFIL” into the ADEP field. See for example here

LSZK, Switzerland

A (simplified) flight plan is required for all flights within CAS.

In which part of the world? In my part of the world, by far the largest volume of CAS (controlled airspace) is class “E”. Absolutely nothing is required to fly there, no flightplan, no radio, no transponder, no engine, not even rigid wings or rotors… (unless it is TMZ-transponder mandatory zone or RMZ-radio mandatory zone).

EDDS - Stuttgart

Yeah, much worse than the UK’s deficiencies in radio communication (not saying it is any better in Germany) is their notoriously wrong terminology concerning CAS and OCAS. Just because they don’t have class E doesn’t mean that CAS = approval required.

In the US you don’t even need approval for class C but that is not ICAO compliant. In Germany, France and the US, 80% of GA takes place in airspace E which is CAS but no approval or anything required.

Please, this CAS/OCAS thing hurts badly

4. Saying the QNH you are on

Mentioning one’s altitude AND the QNH it refers too are standard in the opening call of communication in France, I believe.

EBZH Kiewit, Belgium

Agreed that so much drivel and waffle is expelled during two way comms. As pointed out, some of the stuff appears to be required in the UK, like the departure aerodrome. If you do not offer it on first contact, you will quite often be asked.

The one I get excited about is the initial, Good Morning Maam………when it is a female controller. I somehow know that the frequency is about to be given a life history by our intrepid pilot.

Fly safe. I want this thing to land l...
EGPF Glasgow

A (simplified) flight plan is required for all flights within CAS.

In which part of the world? In my part of the world, by far the largest volume of CAS (controlled airspace) is class “E”. Absolutely nothing is required to fly there, no flightplan, no radio, no transponder, no engine, not even rigid wings or rotors… (unless it is TMZ-transponder mandatory zone or RMZ-radio mandatory zone).

In our part of the world:

SERA.4001 (b) (1) A flight plan shall be submitted prior to operating any flight or portion thereof to be provided with air traffic control service;

SERA.4001 (c) A flight plan shall be submitted, before departure, to an air traffic services reporting office or, during flight, transmitted
to the appropriate air traffic services unit or air-ground control radio station
, unless arrangements have been
made for submission of repetitive flight plans.

SERA.4005 (a) A flight plan shall comprise information regarding such of the following items as are considered relevant by the
competent authority:

SERA.4005 (b) For flight plans submitted during flight, the departure aerodrome or operating site provided shall be the location from
which supplementary information concerning the flight may be obtained, if required. Additionally, the information to
be provided in lieu of the estimated off-block time shall be the time over the first point of the route to which the
flight plan relates.

Class E is not controlled airspace (for VFR) but if you require ATS (FIS) you need to submit a flight plan.

SERA.4005 does not state what the minimum information you need to provide when filing in flight is (what I referred to as a “simplified” flight plan because that is what I learned years back), so that may be national requirements. From memory that includes

  • aircraft reg
  • aircraft type
  • departure
  • destination
Last Edited by Aviathor at 15 Apr 09:15
LFPT, LFPN

Still SERA:

58. ‘controlled airspace’ means an airspace of defined dimensions within which air traffic control service is provided in accordance with the airspace classification;

This may be a little different from the definition I learned 20 years ago where controlled airspace involved the requirement for clearances…

LFPT, LFPN

Superfluous yes. Here we have a person on the radio when asked for some information goes:

“Hang in there”, “I’ll get it for you”, “Won’t be a minute”.

when he could just say….

standby

Re.

we are thinking about going via Upper Beckenham but might change our mind

Is that really OK? It doesn’t tell you anything. When you arrive at Upper Beckenham, is he going to be there? Or is he not? When you arrive anywhere else, is he going to be there? Maybe he has changed his mind.
You need another radio call to explain.

Wouldn’t it be much better to say:
“intention is to go via Upper Beckingham, we’ll let you know if we change our mind.”

Re.

“at this time”

I have wondered about that too, but I now figured out why it is being said. When you report a position a little later than when you actually were there, because of other priorities, you would say “G-XXXX at position XXX at time 39”, as is common in IFR flying.
The “at this time” is to indicate that it is at present time, and not a little while ago. I agree with you that that is the standard however and as such is implied and doesn’t need to be said.

Where a normally fly, we only have CPL’s flying in the area, and radio discipline is (usually) very good. I was a little shocked when I arrived in The Netherlands, about the use of radio amongst PPL’s. I was even discouraged by my Dutch instructor to use the radio to arrange separation with another aircraft, “because we just look out”. Mind you there are some that do it very well, but the majority… I don’t know.

Last Edited by Archie at 15 Apr 09:48

Wouldn’t it be much better to say:
“intention is to go via Upper Beckingham, we’ll let you know if we change our mind.”

Actually, I would say “routing XXXX Upper Beckenham YYYY” where YYYY etc is the next waypoint that is relevant to that ATC unit – and no more.

Then if at UB you change your mind, you do another call.

On an initial call you would say “N123XX DEP DEST routing XXXX Upper Beckenham YYYY” where YYYY etc is the next waypoint that is relevant to that ATC unit – and no more.

So for example if routing via the Farnborough area, you need to give them only the waypoints which are of interest to them e.g. MID CPT etc and if the next one is say ROLEX (near Welshpool in Wales) you don’t read that one.

you would say “G-XXXX at position XXX at time 39”, as is common in IFR flying.

IMHO that is not common unless you are talking to London Info who are required to maintain the charade that they don’t have radar (they do) and they ask you ETAs to waypoints. ATC don’t normally need to know ETAs to waypoints.

But this does raise another big point: there is no point in calling up any place enroute unless it can provide you with a radar service. And if they have you on radar, they won’t be asking for ETAs.

So, in the UK, you would never call up Goodwood, Shoreham, Lydd, Bembridge, Headcorn, London Info (except to check in/out on a flight abroad, pick up IFR clearances etc). Farnborough, Solent Radar, Bournemouth, Boscombe, Exeter, yes.

The subtlety there is that while you can legally overfly Shoreham at 2001ft AAL, it would be stupid especially on a sunny Sunday But nobody should be doing that anyway.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

The problem starts elsewhere. People should stop talking to FIS/LARS/whatever if they don’t plan to access controlled airspace! Fly the airplane!

While flying the aircraft is always first, sometimes it’s helpful to talk to someone (preferably with radar, I don’t have an expensive transponder in the aircraft for no reason!) while outside of controlled airspace. For example last week I flew down to Spanhoe, a trip of just over 2 hours and:

  • Over water, I want to talk to Scottish Info. If the donkey should stop it’s nice having someone already on frequency who roughly knows where you are to declare the mayday with.
  • After coasting in, there was a lot of traffic around the Warton area and the visibility was terrible over the Forest of Bowland. Having a discrete squawk with Warton Radar was nice to have.
  • Same thing while going over the Pennines and in the Huddersfield area, but talking to Leeds radar. There is a very narrow gap between two bits of controlled airspace, and if Leeds radar has some participating traffic, or can just see a 7000 squawk also going for that gap, this is nice to know.
  • Visibility actually got worse progressing through Yorkshire, it was nice to be able to talk to Doncaster radar especially since there was quite a lot of traffic.
Last Edited by alioth at 17 Apr 12:04
Andreas IOM
Sign in to add your message

Back to Top