Martin wrote:
According to FCL.055, you don’t need French to fly (exercise privileges of your licence) in case you have ELP. It says nothing about what you can or cannot say on a radio. That would be a telecom matter anyway.
Isn’t that what I wrote?
Rwy20 wrote:
Isn’t that what I wrote?
You wrote: … you don’t even need French LP in order to use French on the radio according to FCL.055. My objection is that FCL.055 doesn’t say anything about using a particular language on a radio. It doesn’t give any radio privileges.
Martin wrote:
My objection is that FCL.055 doesn’t say anything about using a particular language on a radio.
FCL.055 says:
the language used for radio communications involved in the flight
I still don’t get how that is “doesn’t say anything about using a particular language on a radio”.
You ommitted the crucial “or”.
Also, it only applies to pilots required to use radiotelephony. Not to pilots that use radiotelephony.
Cobalt wrote:
You ommitted the crucial “or”.Also, it only applies to pilots required to use radiotelephony. Not to pilots that use radiotelephony.
The “or” is the fundamental basis for my original statement:
Rwy20 wrote:
The funny thing is that with an English LP entered in your licence, you don’t even need French LP in order to use French on the radio
But since the “or English” didn’t add to the question of whether “FCL.055 doesn’t say anything about using a particular language on a radio”, I didn’t quote it in my quote.
I still fail to see how my above statement about speaking French is not correct. Not being able to exercise the privileges of your licence if you are required to use French on the radio, to me, is the same as “needing French LP”. I admit it may have been formulated even more precisely to cover the case where you voluntarily speak French when you also would have been allowed to use English, but apart from nitpicking I really fail to see the relevance to what I wrote. What I wanted to state, differently worded, was:
Now that Bordeaux_Jim has LP English in the licence, the hassle to get LP French entered was in vain. Or, trying to put it differently:
An English LP confers all privileges also included in the entry for French LP (except in Toussus le Noble).
Rwy20 wrote:
I still don’t get how that is “doesn’t say anything about using a particular language on a radio”.
That part simply says that if you need to use a radio and don’t have ELP, you need LP in whatever language(s) used for communication. But that bit doesn’t give you any privileges at all. It states a condition. Otherwise one wouldn’t need a radio operator’s licence. And I guess it’s not a coincidence there is a list of languages on your licence.
Without that condition in place, you could fly without any LP at all. You would just need appropriate radio operator’s licence. LP is ICAO’s invention, i guess to improve the level of communication in aviation, while R/T licences are ITU/ telecom matter. If you can speak French on the radio, it’s not because of FCL.055.
PS: So yes, English is the universal language and having ELP means you don’t need any other LP. But ELP doesn’t entitle you to speak French on the radio (well, I guess a country could have a rule like that, but you won’t find it in FCL.055, that’s for sure).
But this whole thread is about language proficiency, not radiotelephony licences (which BTW in France are not language specific). What I wrote has to be taken in this context.
Martin wrote:
And I guess it’s not a coincidence there is a list of languages on your licence.
There isn’t, as is the case with Bordeaux_Jim’s licence if it is French.
Martin wrote:
But that bit doesn’t give you any privileges at all.
I think you are pulling my leg by picking on the exact wording? Or is it really that you think what I wrote is factually wrong? Because for me, if you cannot fly without a certain LP entry, then to me the fact of gaining this entry amounts to awarding me a privilege. The privilege to fly and do the radio in French whilst doing so.
But I will try to re-reword my rewording for you:
An English LP confers all privileges also included in the entry for French LP (except in Toussus le Noble).
to
An English LP removes all limitations towards flights requiring the use of French on the radio which are also removed by the entry for French LP (except in Toussus le Noble).
I hope it is now correct, even though no longer clearly understandable without a Chomsky interpreter.
Does it really work that if you learn the stock phrases (“N123XY downwind” etc with “123” spoken in French also, presumably) and you fly to a FR-only airfield, the locals will realise you are a foreigner and keep out of your way accordingly?
My view is that learning a little bit of French is useless, because it merely invites somebody to talk back to you in French, quite likely conversational French. It may even be done to make a point about foreign languages not being welcome – as reported here previously when an airport switched to FR-only at a certain time and ATC refusing to speak English from that point on, which would have trapped a non French speaker there until the following day.
And then you will be completely lost. This isn’t like ordering food in a restaurant, or buying bananas…
Almost everytime that I’ve visited a “French only” airport, it’s been deserted. So while I spoke French on the radio, there was nobody to listen!
Exceptions have been rare. I’ve limited French, but had enough to sort myself out. But I do agree with Peter. A list of stock phrases, without any knowledge of the languange is inviting trouble. Imagine a Chineese man or Russian woman, with no knowledge of English, learning a few stock phrases from the internet. They won’t have a clue how to pronounce them, so nobody would even understand what they were trying to say.
But thining about my history, if I’d turned up to French only airfields on the basis that “if anyone else was around, I’d head elsewhere and follow plan B” then I’d probably have gotten in 75%+ of the times.
Rwy20 wrote:
I think you are pulling my leg by picking on the exact wording? Or is it really that you think what I wrote is factually wrong?
I simply took what you (originally) wrote as an implication that FCL.055 gives you the privilege of using French. And I don’t agree with that. But what you wrote can be understood in a different way and then we agree: According to FCL.055, you don’t need French LP if you have English LP. Which means you can speak French on the radio (as long as you have the appropriate R/T privileges) without French LP.
Ii was a minor correction (PS: clarification might be a better word for it) for me, I didn’t expect it would turn into this.
There isn’t, as is the case with Bordeaux_Jim’s licence if it is French.
So French licences don’t have field XII Radiotelephony privileges with a list of languages?
Because for me, if you cannot fly without a certain LP entry, then to me the fact of gaining this entry amounts to awarding me a privilege.
Would you say that a valid medical gives you the privilege of using French on the radio? FCL.055 clearly states that it’s the privileges of your licences and ratings which you shall exercise only if you have LP (in case you’re required to use radio, which you might not be). Meaning it’s those licences and ratings what gives you the privileges. But that’s besides the original point. We can agree to disagree, I don’t see any sense in debating this further. 
As for learning just some phrases, I agree with @Peter and @dublinpilot . Theoretically, we should stick to standard phraseology, but in practice this IMHO just invites problems. You can learn the basics, you might understand position reports, but I wouldn’t use it myself unless I can carry a conversation in that language. That’s putting the legal aspect aside.
