Airborne_Again wrote:
You can still be IFR since you don’t need a clearance in class G
I don’t think many understand that bit very well, but the easy way to swallow it: is no need for IFR clearance in class G 
Peter is going to EGKA, it’s ATC in Class G, to gilde IAP & enter ATZ he will need fresh “new IFR clearance” in Class G, no?
I have done an IFR flight to Ouessant recently and few local flights, I was not sure if one needs an IFR clearance to fly that IAP?
For Ouessant usually Iroise, Landivisieu or Brest acknowledge your intention to start the IAP at your choice of IAF.
If AFIS is present they will suggest you contact them, if not they might ask your intentions and for instance if its a touch and go ask you to report before re entering controlled airspace.
I have often done RNP approaches to Ouessant with instructors or examiners, often followed by a touch and go then several circuits in VFR before returning for the ILS at Brest which along with some other handling as needed for my MEP and my IR revalidations.
The weather between Brest and Ouessant can be incredibly different. The last reval was a take off from Brest in LVP, winds 270/40, solid IMC at 4000ft to the Ouessant IAF, then beautiful blue skies with some puffy cumulus over the island, was able to do a beautiful low level circuit of the island before back into IMC return to Brest and break cloud at neat DA 550ft
It makes it worthwhile to have to revalidate November to January
Ibra wrote:
Peter is going to EGKA, it’s ATC in Class G, to gilde IAP & enter ATZ he will need fresh “new IFR clearance” in Class G, no?
Yes, because of the special provision that aerodrome traffic at controller airport is controlled even in class G. But that is a non-issue. When arriving at a controlled airport IFR you need an approach clearance in any case and you won’t enter the ATZ until you’re on the approach.
Airborne_Again wrote:
in any case and you won’t enter the ATZ until you’re on the approach
Indeed, but Peter will complain he is losing “IFR cleared to destination” with that, he is happy to lose CAS access overhead SAM VOR, but losing an automatic proceed as cleared to approach & land IFR at EGKA will be problematic, I guess that is the reason why IAPs are not included in FPL only the STAR
gallois wrote:
For Ouessant usually Iroise, Landivisieu or Brest acknowledge your intention to start the IAP at your choice of IAF.
Indeed, if you are flying via their sectors, they will clear you to IAF or give QNH (= clearance), but how does it work for depart & land IFR at Ouessant with no AFIS, the whole IAP plate is under 3000ft amsl and outside controlled airspace, do you have to call ATC/FIS by phone before departing to fly that? or in the air before going to IAF?
Pentoise & Toussus for local practice when no one in tower, you will have to phone ATC (Orly or CDG) on the ground, calling in the air out of the blue is not good airmanship, besides one will be in airspace above 3kft while flying the approach !
If there is no AFIS at Ouessant just like any other non ATS airfield in France you descend on the IAP until MDA. If you have visual reference on the airfield you circle to land. This is obligatory unless on a training or examination flight when the instructor/examiner make an arrangement with the approach ATS.
To take off from Ouessant IFR you simply file a flight plan (Z) in which you give a time to enter IFR and where. Once you climb to 2500ft approx you call up the ATS you wish to work and request activation of your flight plan. If you are staying OCAS and above 3000’ you just follow your flight plan and talk with the ATS, if you need to enter CAS they will clear you to a point on your route and transfer you to the next ATS when the time comes, they in turn might give you another cleared to, further along your flight plan.
In CAS the ATS might well clear you direct to a waypoint further along or suggest a re- route to avoid traffic etc. OCAS they may advise you of the need to avoid an active “R” zone but once avoided might inform you that you have passed the zone and can continue own navigation. You are still IFR and need to keep in two way communication with the ATS you are working until s/he transfers you to the next ATS which if it inside CAS will have already been contacted, it might even be the same person who will then give you a.clearance through or into CAS.
Its more complex to write than to do.
Ibra wrote:
Indeed, but Peter will complain he is losing “IFR cleared to destination” with that, he is happy to lose CAS access overhead SAM VOR, but losing an automatic proceed as cleared to approach & land IFR at EGKA will be problematic, I guess that is the reason why IAPs are not included in FPL only the STAR
Sorry, I don’t get your point. “Cleared to destination” never includes the approach clearance. When you’re approaching the destination you’ll either be vectored, get an approach clearance straightaway or some delaying action such as a hold.
“Cleared to destination” never includes the approach clearance.
It does if you lose comms
I had this discussion with Lille today. I explained to them that a handover to London Info terminates one’s IFR clearance. They obviously sort of knew something because they were telling me to descend below FL065 (which is wrong; it is FL075 there) and it was clear there had been some dialogue between UK and France on CAS busts by traffic going France → UK but nobody explained to the French what the details were.
The UK normally terminates your IFR clearance upon the first exit from CAS. Scottish Control is much better in this respect; no idea why. UK ATCOs beat up anybody on social media (FB is a favourite beat-up place) who complains about this and they tend to not see there is any kind of problem.
You remain “IFR” of course but in the UK Class G it means nothing. It is purely in your head.
Airborne_Again wrote:
Sorry, I don’t get your point. “Cleared to destination” never includes the approach clearance. When you’re approaching the destination you’ll either be vectored, get an approach clearance straightaway or some delaying action such as a hold.
I was just joking, only STAR arrival is included (none at EGKA) but yes you are not cleared to IAP & ATZ & Land
gallois wrote:
To take off from Ouessant IFR you simply file a flight plan (Z) in which you give a time to enter IFR and where
I am not sure why you have to file Z-FPL on takeoff from LFEC? you can’t file I-FPL without AFIS?
Try filing I-FPL = LFEC-MATER-LFEC at FL30, it works & validates, it’s in CAS at MATER and above 3000ft, so one will need to talk to ATC, get FPL ACK & ACT, plus IFR+CAS+IAP clearances
How about, I-FPL = LFEC-MARCO-LFEC at 2000ft all OCAS and not talking to anyone? what will be the issue? (appart from life jacket, doing it on sunny days and that it does not validate as FPL, but let’s assume it did)
I pretty sure you can depart IFR from LFEC with no AFIS as long as you have 1500m visibility
The question do you need 3000ft ceiling? 1000ft ceiling? 500ft ceiling? 200ft ceiling?
Seems all the above are allowed under SERA/NCO and French law for “AD minima”, except maybe the last one
ATC, however, on first contact may tell you to “remain VMC”, “remain bellow 3000ft”, “IFR start at”, “FPL activated”…
Maybe uncontrolled IFR from/to non-instrument runway outside published routes is pretty new?
Peter wrote:
The UK normally terminates your IFR clearance upon the first exit from CAS
One data point how UK handle it, if you leave CAS at say SFD or DET and land at Damyns Hall, but you forget to close “serious IFR FPL” (serious = in the system = EuroControl or Airways not the ad-hoc IFR transit of Class D or ATZ), then nothing will come out of it !
I know that open VFR FPLs are ignored for S&R prurposes and one does not have to close them, they just die and better not ask ATC/FIS/ATS to do it, some do get angry (“we don’t close FPLs in this country”, that was after June2016 ), but I never looked in details on closing an active IFR FPL after one has left CAS and landed at non-ATS destination? or decided to fly to his alternate?
@Ibra, where do you get the idea that you need AFIS to file an IFR flight plan? I do it regularly at LFEC, LFFk and several other airfields, especially between noon and 1400hrs local.
Other than for take off and landing you need to be above 3000’ for an IFR flight in France.
Take off at LFEC needs a minimum of 400m visibility without AFIS as there is no LVP.
The ceiling is not important, regulation wise as you would of course with a ceiling below MDA prepare an alternate eg the ILS at Brest with a DA of 525’.
LFEC – Mater -LFEC, IFR would require a FPL for 2 reasons 1) In France all IFR flights outside of the airfield boundaries require a flight plan 2) If my memory serves me correctly MATER is just inside CAS.
You could therefore go IFR from LFEC to one of the IAF’s OCAS and shoot the IAP with or without AFIS or flight plan providing you at least auto announce on frequency with position reports. The same also applies to LFFK where there is no tower.
