From here
gallois wrote:
It is not EASA or ICAO because IIRC there is no delineation between VFR or IFR airfields, only those with or without instrument arrivals and departure procedures.
The delineation is between VFR and IFR airfields. Or, to be precise, between airfields where you are permitted to operate IFR and airfields where you are not. In Sweden, almost all VFR fields, down to the local grass strip, are designated as IFR in the Eurocontrol system so that you can file I flight plans to and from them. It is the national ATS providers (or possibly national CAAs) who provide this information to Eurocontrol.
In France there are very few, if any, airfields marked VFR only.
There are different procedures for landing and taking off on and from an untowered airfield without an instrument procedure, than from one with instrument procedures and from fully towered, staffed, lit, and STARed and SiDed. (By procedures I also mean minima)
But some countries do not allow IFR to untowered / or non ATSO airfields).
So what designates an airfield as a VFR airfield? Those marked VFR only, excluded.
gallois wrote:
So what designates an airfield as a VFR airfield? Those marked VFR only, excluded.
A very good question…. The AIP states for each airport if it is VFR and VFR/IFR, but that classification seems — in many countries — unrelated to how they are classified with Eurocontrol.
gallois wrote:
So what designates an airfield as a VFR airfield?
It’s in the AIP:
But that doesn’t actually say that IFR traffic is not permitted.
It’s a strange area this. France and Sweden seem to be pretty much on the same page.
In other words you can fly IFR into and out of most/many grass strips.
For arrival there will not be an actual IAP so (in France and uncontrolled) if there is an AFIS you will receive the parameters that way and you will probably but not necessarily join at the beginning of the downwind leg in the VFR pattern. Without AFIS you will fly overhead at minimum pattern altitude plus 500ft get your parameters (other than QNH which you will have been given by the nearest airport.) Once more you will make a descent and integrate the VFR pattern at the start of the downwind leg. How you get to the vertical or the beginning of downwind can be totally in IMC. You will of course need to have filed an "I"FPL and above 3000ft be in 2 way communication with an ATS.
Departing is where the big difference happens. You can in fact depart from 1 of these aerodromes IFR on an “I” FPL with a 400m RVR or should I say VIBAL as these airfields would not normally have the equipment to record RVRs.
They would also not have SIDs so it is the PICs responsibility to perform the departure to a safe level so as to avoid obstacles and other traffic.
So in the absence of some sort of statement saying “VFR traffic only” or “IFR prohibited” what makes a VFR aerodrome exclusive. And when it comes to landing does the fact that the actual integration and circuit pattern being the same as VFR obviate this VFR traffic only restriction?
You of course do need to close your flight plan by telephone on the ground.
So when we talk of VFR airports on this forum, what do we really mean?
gallois wrote:
But that doesn’t actually say that IFR traffic is not permitted.
gallois wrote:
So in the absence of some sort of statement saying “VFR traffic only” or “IFR prohibited” what makes a VFR aerodrome exclusive.
I agree one could argue that “logically” from the AIP. I also agree the French and Swedisch approach make more sense and I wish it was that way in Spain as well.
All I am saying is how Spanish paper-pushers, aerodrome operators, nearby ATS units etc will interpret this.
If I try to file IFR from LESB to LESL Eurocontrol says “nope”:
Same happens in Germany between say EDWQ and EDWR:
Although the AIP of both these countries state that IFR traffic is allowed in both controlled and uncontrolled airspace, it seems to be de facto only allowed in controlled airspace.
Alpha_Floor wrote:
Although the AIP of both these countries state that IFR traffic is allowed in both controlled and uncontrolled airspace, it seems to be de facto only allowed in controlled airspace.
In the case of Germany, the airspace structure and the principles for issuing clearances means that IFR in class G is not practically possible except for approaches and departures from AFIS airports. In principle, in areas where controlled airspace starts at 2500 AGL and there are no obstacles higher than 1500 AGL, you could depart and fly uncontrolled IFR below controlled airspace. But in IMC you would be stuck there because ATC would not issue a clearance to climb into controlled airspace, due to a unique interpretation of separation requirements.
What you could do (which would be in accordance with SERA although I’m sure the LBA would not like it) is depart VFR on a Z flight plan, climb uncontrolled IFR through a stratus layer wholly below controlled airspace with clear air above, then switch back to VFR before you enter controlled airspace and finally pick up an IFR clearance inside controlled airspace….
(In fact, I’m sure that’s what lots of pilots do already – we’ve heard the jokes about perpetual VMC below the MVA.)
Airborne_Again wrote:
What you could do (which would be in accordance with SERA although I’m sure the LBA would not like it) is depart VFR on a Z flight plan, climb uncontrolled IFR through a stratus layer wholly below controlled airspace with clear air above, then switch back to VFR before you enter controlled and finally pick up an IFR clearance inside controlled airspace….
Rather, many pilots don’t even do those mental aerobatics. They depart, make sure they are obstacle-safe and just take the IFR clearance whenever it comes, no matter what the flight conditions were up to that point.
The only practical issue is there might be a BfL on the “tower” of that field, and if you very visibly disappear into a cloud right after liftoff, and he has an issue with you, he might cause you some trouble…
boscomantico wrote:
The only practical issue is there might be a BfL on the “tower” of that field, and if you very visibly disappear into a cloud right after liftoff, and he has an issue with you, he might cause you some trouble…
This happened to someone I knew. Some bitter flight instructor at an uncontrolled airfield reported him to the LBA. The LBA processed the “Anzeige” but later dropped the case becase the PIC stated in his defense “The flight conditions in my position in space and from my point of view in the aircraft’s flight deck where VMC at all times and there is no way the suing party could disprove this as he wasn’t onboard the airplane!”
Of course it’s best to avoid these situations (and stay well clear from a**h**** who go around teaching unrequested lessons to everyone…)
This stuff is not trivial since only some countries have sent data to Eurocontrol on which airports support an IFR arrival i.e. have an IAP.
The UK does not, so you can file “I” to/from any farm strip. You can’t do this in e.g. Germany.
IIRC, you can file “I” to some Croatian airports when the tower is empty and the IAP is not available e.g. Mali Losinj LDLO, but ATC (the nearby unit, Pula LDPL) will either amend the FP or ask you to re-file it.
