Flyer59 wrote:
(It is true that as a self employed i have a more flexible schedule).
Well, that is the main thing. I know several people in your or similar situation where -+ 2-3 days do not matter. In my workspace, the tolerance is close to zero. If I am not there when I am supposed to turn up, I am out of a job. That kind of pressure is known to have killed people in the past, when they “had to” get home but did not. My own interpretation is different… I simply don’t go if I am not sure to a very high degree that I can get home.
That is the crux that i hear from many PPLs who get very frustrated with the weather in our area. Almost all the people I know are employees with inflexible time schedules. That means, they can leave at day 1 earliest and must be back at the last day of their vaccation, come what will. I recall one guy who got fired from his job because his airliner was late back… that is the work climate in this country. Your fault or not, it is your responsibility to be back. Period.
So if I have a 4 day window to do a Croatia flight via the alps, I have to be 100% sure that I can get back on day 2,3,4 or I need to cancel. If day 1 is closed, I can try on day 2 or 3, but 4 HAS to be open, no matter what. Well, it doesn’t work like that. In reality, if you want to do a 4 day trip, you need at least a 6 day window to be reasonably safe. And now you try to tell your passengers that instead of the 4 days they planned, it will be a turnaround trip. They will maybe do this once, but never again. People want to enjoy their vaccation from day a-z, not from e to y…
Flexibility in GA is everything, otherwise you loose valuable vaccation time to just looking for a weather window which is safe enough to work. And with a 65% chance of the alps being blocked at any given day, that chance is 2/3rds against you.
Almost all the people I know personally who have done long trips have been able to assign a generous time window to it or are people who are their own boss. Quite a few of them also travel alone, without spouses or other better halfs. I would think that all in all, that is one of the primary reasons people just don’t do it.
Stephan_Schwab wrote:
I cannot see that CAT provides me the same convenience. It’s cheaper but makes one waste a lot of time running to wait to run again. Add the security hassle, canceled flights and the schedule that never fits… Plus in the case above I would fly Barcelona-Stuttgart and then do the rest by car. I would loose a full day and it is exhausting. Factor in that I need to eat at certain times and don’t want to eat “whatever” and you will easily see that there is more to travel than cost. Especially, if you travel for work every week.
Stephan, I envy you for the setup you have. I travel for business just as much, but can’t seem to get GA into it more than maybe once or twice a year. I’m not self-employed at this point, so it does limit my options substantially. For the love of it, it’d be great to do more of these trips flying myself.
But I can’t get my head around some of your arguments.
dublinpilot wrote:
Most renters just can’t afford that sort of thing. […] The solution of course is to get to pilots together.
Not to make this a cost-sharing discussion again, but where did the idea that the other person should be a qualified pilot enter the argument/logic? The solution if you can’t afford to do longer trips but you want to do them is either earn more money or find people to share the cost with. The qualification of those people is much less relevant than the size of their purse, to put it bluntly. Plus these people might be the future GA pilots to keep the industry alive.
Mooney_Driver wrote:
Oxygen is a must in any moutain flying.
Please be careful with generalizing statements such as above. It’s obviously factually not true. A lot of mountain flying (both local and crossings in good conditions) can be done perfectly fine without oxygen. Had I read your statement two years ago when looking for advice on my first Alps crossings right here, who knows – I might not have gone?
Jan_Olieslagers wrote:
I mean, anyone able to pass the hurdles of gaining a PPL must have the intellectual ability to become an aircraft owner? Only lack of ambition or lack of means (money, time, …) can hold one back
Whenever our discussions here come to this point, I have to stand up and say: Here’s one happy renter who flies trips AND thinks of himself as neither lacking the intellectual ability nor the means of becoming an aircraft owner – but who just doesn’t think it makes sense. It makes sense emotionally and it can makes sense if there’s only rental outfits in your area that really are as bad as they’re often made out to be here.
Mooney_Driver wrote:
I recall one guy who got fired from his job because his airliner was late back…
I don’t see why you wouldn’t just call in sick for the day? I mean I know it’s not a “clean” solution but rather than getting fired, I think I’ll just have a very, very bad headache!
Not to make this a cost-sharing discussion again, but where did the idea that the other person should be a qualified pilot enter the argument/logic? The solution if you can’t afford to do longer trips but you want to do them is either earn more money or find people to share the cost with. The qualification of those people is much less relevant than the size of their purse, to put it bluntly. Plus these people might be the future GA pilots to keep the industry alive.
True, but from what I see, most people don’t want to pay unless they can log it, and non-pilot passengers don’t want to pay at all (although I am happy to say most non-pilot passengers, and most non-logging pilot passengers, who I have flown with in the past, have been generous in paying for food and drinks 
)
So most people who need a contribution are stuck with having to dig out other PPLs.
Actually most renters I know around here will not do a flight at all unless they can cost share it.
I travel for business just as much, but can’t seem to get GA into it more than maybe once or twice a year. I’m not self-employed at this point, so it does limit my options substantially. For the love of it, it’d be great to do more of these trips flying myself.
We have the other thread(s) for business travel specifically, because business travel is not related to flying long trips. For example I have a customer 5-8hrs driving away, with a flying time of 1hr 10 mins. But the main reason I don’t fly on business is because, in most cases, in Europe, your customer must not discover that you have a plane. So in reality most “business trips” done in GA are not formal customer visits but are flights meeting up with old chums who you happen to do business with (and are 100% tax deductible as travel expenses in the same way) 
Whenever our discussions here come to this point, I have to stand up and say: Here’s one happy renter who flies trips AND thinks of himself as neither lacking the intellectual ability nor the means of becoming an aircraft owner – but who just doesn’t think it makes sense. It makes sense emotionally and it can makes sense if there’s only rental outfits in your area that really are as bad as they’re often made out to be here.
You probably do have a good setup at your base. This is far from universal. Where I am based, EGKA, there used to be an SR22, N147KA (now at the bottom of the sea), and an FTO DA42 which is still there but is no longer rented because people used to damage it too often. So there are no “touring” options anymore. Not that the aforementioned were ever any good for going away for extended trips, anyway.
Well, that is the main thing. I know several people in your or similar situation where -+ 2-3 days do not matter. In my workspace, the tolerance is close to zero. If I am not there when I am supposed to turn up, I am out of a job. That kind of pressure is known to have killed people in the past, when they “had to” get home but did not. My own interpretation is different… I simply don’t go if I am not sure to a very high degree that I can get home.
Or you could get an airline flight back. This does happen to anybody short of a TBM or similar. I have had to do it only once so far – 2009 – and got Easyjet back from Split to Gatwick (£200). Then 4 days later up at 3am and another £200 to retrieve the plane.
In fact, from Croatia to Switzerland, you could probably get a bus or a train back quite easily; it’s just up the road.
I don’t see why you wouldn’t just call in sick for the day? I mean I know it’s not a “clean” solution but rather than getting fired, I think I’ll just have a very, very bad headache!
Indeed – half the country does this quite normally
Patrick wrote:
Whenever our discussions here come to this point, I have to stand up and say: Here’s one happy renter who flies trips AND thinks of himself as neither lacking the intellectual ability nor the means of becoming an aircraft owner – but who just doesn’t think it makes sense.
So am I!
It makes sense emotionally and it can makes sense if there’s only rental outfits in your area that really are as bad as they’re often made out to be here.
Agreed. And of course my outfit is great since I am the chairman. (No, seriously, I don’t give myself any privileges when it comes to renting.)
Peter wrote:
You probably do have a good setup at your base. This is far from universal
Granted, but it’s also not universal to not have it.
The tone here when the discussion swings towards renting is always rather negative. That’s probably because there are many owners here, most of whom are probably owners because they were renters in the past and have sour memories.
I just want to highlight that there is a pretty alive “rental” world out there that goes beyond the frustrated “around the church/burger run/giving up within a year” crowd.
Our club has a dozen planes and a good share of them is out of the country at weekends because people do fly trips. Just last week I believe 5 planes returned from a joint trip to Lofoten in the North of Norway.
The tone here when the discussion swings towards renting is always rather negative. That’s probably because there are many owners here, most of whom are probably owners because they were renters in the past and have sour memories.
I just want to highlight that there is a pretty alive “rental” world out there that goes beyond the frustrated “around the church/burger run/giving up within a year” crowd.
Agreed. Our club has regular trips. We’ve been to Denmark, Sweden, Ireland, Romania last year, and this next month there are two separate 7-day trips to Morocco!
It would be useful to know where these great clubs are, so others can join in.
Otherwise, it’s a bit like saying “I have just been to a fantastic airport, avgas €1/litre”
@Colm & @AA: great for you if you can rent to meet your travelling requirements. I am afraid such a situation is far from typical however. On the one hand there are places where few people have an interest for long trips (France comes to mind), but more numerous are the clubs that will discourage long trips with club planes either by imposing a minimum number of hours per day or because the planes are simply too much in demand. The latter is the case at my club, and, as I understand, at most clubs nearby. Perhaps it is not a coincidence that both of you are somewhat at the outer edge of Europe…
It would be useful to know where these great clubs are, so others can join in.
The club is called Freedom Aviation, based at Kemble EGBP.
You can also see the trip report from the Romania trip: http://www.euroga.org/forums/trips-airports/3599-trip-around-slovakia-hungary-romania-and-austria/post/86898#86898 (recently published in Flyer mag, too).
