Let me make the opposite point (my favourite pastime 
)…
Once you learn about airspace classes, you have a reasonable expectation to be able to “just fly” (subject to the usual due diligence i.e. notams, including enroute ones if going VFR, contacting the airports re PPR/PNR, etc).
I would never criticise anybody for taking this view. That’s what I always did and it works. You just need a Plan B for when some ATC unit tells you NO and then you have to dogleg it OCAS. Or fly it wholly OCAS.
VFR is really simpler then most make it, but there are areas which you have to do correctly and which many screw up on.
Instructors almost never fly anywhere; the only ones I met back then who did (excluding ATPs, and their 20,000hrs’ experience is not really relevant to VFR) turned out to be complete fakes, telling bogus stories at the airport bar.
Post-PPL, you just have to get out there, read up on EuroGA and fly to places.
Peter wrote:
I have never directly known a UK school that teaches GPS in any way whatsoever.
These days, it’s part of the syllabus (both theoretical and practical). But you are still supposed to know how to do it the old fashioned way.
Peter wrote:
Unfortunately anyone who wants to progress in GA needs to throw away an awful lot of what they learned “at school”.
I for one like the old fashioned navigation. Not for getting from A to B, but in itself, as a challenge. I would actually take a GPS, to log my performance and as a backup, just in case I got lost. There are competitions in navigation (and they go up to world championships) if someone wants to put his skills to a test.
Peter wrote:
And if so, does anybody actually fly them, and if so, who?
Locals (the French) fly them. They are meant to make your life easier, so why not? Have you ever talked to a French pilot without IR? I heard about them from quite a few pilots before ever flying there myself. I thought I remembered you writing something about them so I looked around and found http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/245263-vfr-routes-cannes.html#post2870323 and https://www.euroga.org/forums/flying/333-vfr-on-airways-in-france So you forgot you heard of them?
Gosh you dug up some ancient stuff 
One of those sites is now just about dead, with a fair few obviously synthetic characters…
I was possibly referring to the Class E routes, and those are indeed what I flew whenever possible. Base FL055/065 or so, highest possible FL115 (Class D above; not allowed for VFR, IME).
But they are not really “VFR routes” as such; UK PPLs often refer to them as “VFR in French airways”; this is the result of the UK PPL scene drilling into everybody’s brain that “airways = instant £1M fine” so everybody is scared of getting into “airways”, and then some discovered that you can fly VFR in “French airways” without realising that they are Class E so obviously OK for VFR. They are just lines on the map.
Martin wrote:
Sorry for the misunderstanding.
No problem :-)
tinfoilhat wrote:
This is a great looking plane but it doesn’t look like the kind of thing I associate with grass strips. I reckon it could carry 4 people and 4 bikes though. I must read up on the Bonanza
The Bonanza is great for grass strips. It has stout landing gear, decent prop clearance, and very effective flaps. It is not a Mooney. I used to fly an S35 Bonanza into and out of graded cow pasture when I was living in Texas. With the right technique the Bonanza is a tremendously capable plane. Sure, it’s not quite a back country strip aircraft for flying into 250m dirt strips in the mountains, but for the normal kinds of grass strips found in the UK, most of them won’t be a problem.
BeechBaby wrote:
GA safety in a VFR corridor
Sounds a bit like the Manchester low level route. I don’t fly through it often but it is useful that it exists. Last time I went through there, there were half a dozen microlights flying in various random directions, and an opposite-direction Mooney zipped by at my altitude. There’s also a nasty pinch point in which all single engine traffic must funnel they want to comply with the ‘land clear’ rule which has about 50 feet of room vertically and about half a mile horizontally. You have to keep a damned good lookout, including behind if you can.
The low level VFR west of Rome, and a fair bit out to sea, is very pleasant, however you may find the occasional F-16 transiting south to the USAF bases as you are northbound. Quite a nice view same level, and nearly close enough you might see the pilot wave at you.
Hello “tinfoilhat”
ok, I saw where you are based now, makes more sense to me now (LFMD) so basically the route you intend to fly is from/to Cannes to the UK. Ok, understood.
I certainly did not mean to be rude, I apologize if it appeared like that. But I wanted to point out a few things which I did. They are the re-occurring things that happen when people who are new to the market and to flying buy an airplane. I’ve been there, got the t-shirt so to say. So if I point them out to you or whoever else asks me or cares for my opinion, it is based on my mistakes as well as on others I’ve seen happen. We’ve seen it on this forum as well but primarily I deal with people who are about at the same level of wanting to buy an airplane as you are.
When someone like you pops up and asks the question you did, I am trying to get a profile sorted out to see
- what does the guy really want to do
- what does the airplane he needs need to be capable of
- does that conflict or coincide with what he thinks he wants at this stage.
- are there better options to at least bring along.
Most of the time if someone calls on me about a particular airplane type they set their eyes on, I will ask myself these questions and then see if they are compatible or if there are better solutions. I will then present those solutions. It will give the potential buyer something to think about. In some cases, they will stick to their original choice and all will be well, in others they realize they can do much better with something which did not occur to them.
You have your eyes set on an SR22, which is an excellent airplane. No question about it. Flyer 59 and boscomantico as well as cirrus_man can tell you all about them.
What I suggest you do before you comit to any airplane is to thoroughly check around what else exists. If you come back to the same you initially wanted, probably it is the right choice and looking around will have strenghtened that. You will not find yourself watching planecheck 2 weeks after you buy, as many others do. If you see that for the mission you are after there is a better choice, then it was even more worth it.
You said you wanted to run the airplane at 25k per annum all up. I told you that by my experience that is a very tight budget if not outright unrealistic. I operate an airplane which is quite cheap to run and I run up approximately 25-30k per annum for fuel, scheduled maintenance, parking, insurance and all that, basically the whole shebang for 70-100 hours, other than unscheduled maintenance. I know people who run planes like the SR22 or Columbia 400’s and their yearly outlay at 100-150 hours is definitly more. So your question was, was that realistic, and I don’t think it is.
How you finance your airplane is your choice, certainly it can be a good thing to do so with outside capital, I and many here prefer not to. But what I saw there was a combination I’ve seen before, many times: A too low budget for operating combined with a maxed out buying budget. I don’t like either and I’ll tell you why: Those are the people who will be back on the market a year later because they find out they can’t really afford their dreamplane. Then they will try to get back the same amount they invested to find that the market won’t pay that. They end up with a destroyed dream and a financial loss. That is what I don’t like, because most of such cases are lost to aviation almost for sure.
What I have found to work quite well is something I’ve been trying to explain to you before, apparently poorly. When people will ask me to find them a plane in the range we are talking about, I will ask them what their max budget is. I will then half that and work up from there. So in your case, I’d look at what I can get for 100k to 150k.
This will do several things.
A) it will provide you with a reserve for unforseen stuff like an engine which gives out shortly after you buy.
B) it will leave room for improvements you may want to do to your plane. Almost NO plane comes exactly as you need it. EASA can come up with a new avionic thingy you are supposed to have, such as 8.33, such as WAAS, such as ADS-B within a short while after you buy, and if you have maxed out your budget you will be in a problem right there.
C) it will, if you find a plane for 50-75% of your budget, allow you to fly the first year or two on the rest of your budget. You will see what the REAL costs are, what you have to budget for the future and out of that, what kind of financial planning you need.
With the new information you kindly provided I would think there is a base for working out a profile for you. We have regular trips from Cannes to the S- of England, which is a 550-600 NM trip one way. And you got overwater (channel, approach into Cannes), high ground (which can be overflown or circumnavigated) on the way, as you mentioned before.
An SR22 will do this trip, without any major problem. So will a TB20, any Mooney, many Pipers, some Cessnas and so on. Some will do it better, some will be a challenge.
600 NM will require
3 hours in a 200 kt plane such as a SR22T, Mooney Ovation or even less in an Acclaim, Cessna 400.
3.5 hours in a 176 kt plane such as a SR22, Mooney 231/252, Piper Turbo Arrow, Seneca II, Cessna 210, recent Bonanzas and many more.
4 hours in a 150 kt plane such as Mooney 201, F, Arrow III, C182RG, older Bonanzas e.t.c.
5 hours in a 120 kt plane such as an Archer, Cheetah e.t.c.
These are quite some differences which need considering as well. Add to that payload, add to that anti/deice and more factors.
As I said, I went through all these stages in 2009 when I bought my airplane. I started looking in 2007. Goal was to buy a plane I can
- afford
- within ~25k Euros (half my budget)
- decent payload for 2 and ample baggage
- 600-700 NM range.
- decent avionics
I looked at many planes, came close to a Cherokee 140, a Cherokee 180, Robin HR100, several Arrows, Grumman Traveller. Something never quite computed. Either not the range I wanted, not the speed, avionic museums, too expensive. I did not even consider a Mooney because I thought them out of my reach. Well, after all that time I found the one I am flying now, within price, good avionics, affordable and in short, what I was looking for. Out of the box, totally. After 5 years of operation I am very happy with the airplane, it is now IFR, had it’s engine done and avionics upgraded. Had I spent all my budget, I would not have gotten there.
After that and the website I mounted for it, some other folks like you started to talk to me. Several own their own planes now, despite thinking they never could. Range goes from a AS202 Bravo via several Cessnas and vintage Mooneys to a recent Ovation, two Senecas and, indirectly a Citation 501 Eagle (that guy wanted an Eclipse at first).
I hope you get my drift a bit better now. Again, it is not my intention to be rude or to discourage you, just the opposite. Buying an airplane can be the most satisfying investment you ever do if it is done with due diligence, patience and an open mind.
Amen ;-)
