Why so few jet warbirds in Europe?

noplanB wrote:

Flying Annex 2 IFR is legal in at least Lithuania, Poland, Norway, Sweden.

Surely it’s possible with local NAA, the Aerospatiale/BAC Concorde is also Annex2 (non-EASA aircraft), I am sure it’s ok for IFR

Do you have the registrations of ex-mil jets flying IFR?

Flying Annex 2 IFR is legal in at least Lithuania, Poland, Norway, Sweden.

One needs to be a little careful with this in some places, because – I’ve noticed – the Annex 1 (Annex 2 is now Annex 1) types seen flying IFR tend to be owned by very high net worth individuals, with presumably “excellent connections”. Check out, for example, the several specimens of the Lancair Evolution (do a search here).

Concorde is also Annex2

Where is that flying?

noplanB wrote:

There are over 200 L-39s in the US, maybe ~20 in Europe? But I am especially interested in the true fighters. There are a few Mig-15 derivatives in PL and CZ, Hawker Hunter and Mirage III in CH and the F-104 in Norway. Maybe I missed a few. But there are way more in the US and that’s not counting the amazing inventory of defense adversary companies like Draken and ATAC.

Primarily: Regulation and cost.

Regulation: Most of the operation of vintage airplanes these days have been regulated out of existence by the countries involved, usually after high profile accidents. Military jet flying in the UK with Hawker Hunters was de facto outlawed after the Shoreham crash. Vintage passenger transport in Switzerland was de facto banned after the crash of the Ju Air JU52. The list goes on. De Facto as it is de jure still possible in many cases but not financially viable due to increased regulation. e.g. you may only fly vintage airliners without passengers (6 people total on board including crew) which makes the operation of e.g. a Junkers or Super Constellation impossible) and there were more and more regulative moves to put hurdles in front of anyone trying that most have given up

Jet flying on top is very noisy and people simply don’t tolerate this kind of noise anymore. Come to it the clima lobby who wishes all aviation grounded anyway.

Cost: Fuel cost, maintenance cost and so on is by a factor of multitude more expensive here than it is in the US. Those very few who remain are highly regulated and financed and keep their flight hours to a minimum.

One hour flying with such airplanes can be more expensive than hiring an airliner.

So this kind of flying is really something which can no longer be done with any sort of reliability here in Europe.

Other factors:
- US has vast chunks of uncontrolled airspace, all up to 18’000
- EU has many different countries, all with their own set of rules and restrictions
- EU has small countries, and the borders are therefore quickly reached, the more so for fast moving objects

noplanB wrote:

Commercial drone regulations will kill gliders.

Yep, and I’m afraid it will not only kill gliders…

noplanB wrote:

Why would someone with TBM money bother with a Lancair?!

Peter is somehow obsessed with those Lancair Evolution

Why would someone with TBM money bother with a Lancair?!

Excitement and looks

Same reasons men choose women (and then discover they don’t like GA)

I think the serious answer is that warbirds are really quite useless for anything other than local flights, and airshows. The fast jets are permanently on minimum fuel. In the military, maintenance was of the order of 50hrs for every airborne hour, so really expensive, and you need specific expertise, which we all know is scarce in Europe.

This would be something else though.

In the US, my observation is that they are more often owned by regular guys who buy them inexpensively as second planes and fly them infrequently. It’s not so much conspicuous consumption as being conspicuously nerdy airplane people. It’s hard to be conspicuous around here anyway, there’s a lot going on and nobody notices what you’re doing regardless. Or cares.

I know of three at my base. One is a very nice L-29, owned by a divorced guy who lives on a boat to save money and who flies it once a month, his regular ride is a straight tail 172. The second is a Fouga that lives outside on the ramp. shared by two guys after being bought as a toy for $75K between them. I only know one of the owners but he works for a local FBO, in a well paid job but hardly a super wealthy guy. He is also partners in an SF260, his ‘real plane’ which is an advantageous deal because he does all the work on the plane and the other owner pays most of the bills. The third is an L-39 owned by an airline pilot who learned to fly as a kid years ago at one of the local FBOs. He was single for years and put his money in real estate which has done very well over 30+ years. I think he owns an apartment building. He’s the only one I would consider wealthy and he and his professionally employed now-wife also have a Cardinal RG for transpiration, her biplane and his two seat Lancair for fun flying.

Ibra wrote:

Do you have the registrations of ex-mil jets flying IFR?

I’m pretty sure that the AJ37 Viggen SE-DXN can fly IFR. At least that’s how it appears when it is on international positioning flights.