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600 Kg Aircraft

Spot on, Bosco.

However, to be fair, a lot of stuff has changed purely because regs which have been in place for ever have been dragged out, publicised, and in some cases enforced.

15+ years ago, Brits were flying all over France, with no regard for immigration airports. Nobody was bothered. French police never cared. Today you will get lots of “attention”, if they find out. Not because it matters but because they evidently don’t have much to do.

No GAR form at the UK end either. I don’t think I filed any before about 2010. UK police didn’t care. They knew that if 50 Vietnamese arrive it won’t be in the back of a C150… They still know that now of course, but a big chunk of them have nothing to do so they like the trip to the airport to check your passports.

The “homebuilt” and UL communities have always been flying unrestricted. Permits have always been needed in most places but half the countries never replied so people just went, or sent off the email and went. And they still do. No problem; just make sure you don’t use Mode S because otherwise all sorts of people “who might know the rules” will see you. If I was Annex 1 the first thing I would do is install a Mode C only box The man in the tower cannot tell if it is an RV, a UL, or a Part 23.

Most of the time it worked because nobody cared about the permit matrix, and I think even now nobody cares at the airports you land. What has changed is that GA social media has a lot more coverage of these topics, there are many more busybodies on it, and pilots are an intensely self regulating community. Especially in some countries. Those who aren’t tend to hate us for discussing this stuff

The 600kg issue was expected because any country that didn’t subscribe to the 600kt limit was obviously going to have “some different requirements” for those, which is why there was resistance to the 600kg rise in the UK community, but some of them didn’t get around to drafting regs on it.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

The “homebuilt” and UL communities have always been flying unrestricted. Permits have always been needed in most places but half the countries never replied so people just went, or sent off the email and went. And they still do. No problem

People have been doing that for ages UK to Belgium/Netherlands, until Mode S start getting required (Dutch went hot on ELT & 8.33khz few times) then overfly permits started to get discussed

UK-France is different, there are lot of concessions for kits, microlights, permits, slmg (PMD, NPPL, LAA, BMAA, BGA…), these used to “roam free” in Abbeville grass with customs but sadly this is no longer possible now

For “Annex I” red bi-planes, you could still do some some of this today for “one-off life trip”: if you can use pavement, land at LeTouquet (permission for CTR = phone call) or Calais without transponder using handheld radio on pmd with homebuilts wood & fabric kit permit as long as you carry plb and jacket on your neck, then you hide under the radar low & slow between in grass until you are coming back, when these crash, no one is around and they get buried or fixed back at home in the backyard there is no reason to even insure hull-value on these as the repairs cost are about the excess (e.g. Hercules or Évra propeller for 800£ and bolt it yourself)

The “600kg VL3 mission profile” is way different, it’s factory built, does shinny 140kts that is well visible in ModeS and lands in “big airports” sometimes in weather, it can cross borders every month, when these crash the paperwork gets inspected and likely BGTA, regulator, police, customs, controllers, operation, mechanics are all around the place…so more emphasis on getting permit paperwork done properly, especially, vis a vis an expensive insurance loss !

Last Edited by Ibra at 26 Aug 09:29
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

This is another example of GA community self regulation. There is a long standing debate whether flying in breach of the permit regs voids your insurance. It probably does, so you just need to make sure you don’t hit anything expensive

BTW isn’t this thread on the same topic as these two (below)

It can get quite interesting.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

The only major thing that has changed in France is that the MTOM of a ULM has been increased by 50kg.
The fact that the French ULM community in general does not want to go the way of Germany and some other countries to 600kg has been decided at a national level.
The booklet I posted explains clearly why FFPLUM decided that the increase in regulation that it would bring is not worth it at present. There is still no permission necessary for a German microlight or any other country’s microlight with a MTOM of 500kg to visit France.
It is Germany and other countries which have changed regulations and it is my guess that this is the result of pressure from manufacturers who want to design and build for the more profitable USA LSA market whilst at the same time changing the UL market so that they don’t have to redesign for the lighter MTOM market.
Manufacturers have jumped on the successful ULM market and change it to suit them.
This is not what the ULM scene started out to do. In France at least it has grown massively over the last decade because it is not hampered by massive regulation. The ULM scene allowed flying enthusiasts to take a few metal rods, some cloth and a cheap engine and knock up in their hangar or garden shed ,their very own flying machine . Thereafter enjoy cheap flying without having to get medicals without annuals just a basic set of rules agreed with the regulator.
If the microlight community in Germany, Belgium and others countries are happy to have stricter regulation and higher MTOM, well that is their choice.
For the most part the French community are happy with its choice.
And @Peter you are right it has been discussed in earlier threads.

Btw @Ibra our Super Guepard does have mode S but it doesn’t have an AI or HSI.

Last Edited by gallois at 26 Aug 10:40
France

The “French situation” is explained in easy terms, and with links here.

I don’t think getting a permission will stop anyone, but an Euro 50 fee for sure will. All these “take a short trip on the fly” will be gone. People will go other places.

The elephant is the circulation
ENVA ENOP ENMO, Norway

There is still no permission necessary for a German microlight or any other country’s microlight with a MTOM of 500kg to visit France.

That is true but I was discussing “600kg 140kts VL3”? no one cares about “500kg sub 60kts”

our Super Guepard does have mode S but it doesn’t have an AI or HSI.

Transponders are mandatory for Class Delta in France (or need permission, I will have to ask for that permission again to fly to Rouen/LeTouquet using non-TXP Guépard or D112 from St-Andre this weekend)

Last Edited by Ibra at 26 Aug 11:06
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

gallois wrote:

my guess that this is the result of pressure from manufacturers who want to design and build for the more profitable USA LSA market whilst at the same time changing the UL market so that they don’t have to redesign for the lighter MTOM market.

I’m not myself into the UL scene, but I would rather think the pressure is from the pilot community to be able to take on a reasonable load without being overweight.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

A the end of the day, it’s UL pilots who buy these things, if they wanted JetA turbine in front of 600kg, let it be

Last Edited by Ibra at 26 Aug 12:32
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

@LeSving is the permission really €50? I fid not know that. For how long does the permission last?
@Ibra why do you think 500kg is sub 60knts?
IIRC the MCR01 is around 140kts IAS.
Even the Super Guepard is nearer 90knts. But I admit that at present I am not in it for the speed but I do enjoy a take off in between 80 meters and 150meters on grass at 35°C and a climb of over 1000 fpm. When I get back in the DA40 it really seems sluggish in the climb.
Its also helping me get rid of some bad habits such as getting lazy with my feet. It is also interesting just flying on the compass, slip ball, altimeter and vario. Sharpening up my limited panel skills. It is so nice as well pulling out from and returning the aircraft to the hangar after a quick evening flight. Its so light and easy to manouver compared to the DA40D.
For the moment I am finding it great fun and even now at €80 an hour, since fuel prices have risen itsbstillbgood value flying.🙂

Last Edited by gallois at 26 Aug 16:05
France

why do you think 500kg is sub 60knts?

I was just exaggerating, sitting on 500kg vs 600kg can’t add more than 40% to their speeds

(Joking) some people do get offended when you mention that that deisgn speeds are proportional to root-square of wing loads, you can fly faster when you are overweight

I have not tried MCR yet but I found the VL3 to be a hell of beast, however, D112 (CNSK) & Guepard (ULM) is what I fly regularly near my place when I barely have 2h of free time and flying alone…

Last Edited by Ibra at 26 Aug 16:20
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom
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