Cessna P210N Advice

€8500 lower or new paint scheme,

Again, that is dodgy. An acceptable paint job on a P210 is 13-15k€.

May we ask what made you decide against the P210? Was something non kosher about this particular aircraft or did you decide against the P210 airframe in general?

Some of that reply does not make sense (to me)

  because I visit the aircraft with the calendar limit (EASA) and and not in time as in US (FAA).

Meaningless.

Perhaps he is referring to the fact that an FAA annual is good until the last day of the month vs EASA being the same date (less one)

Do you envision waking up one morning and deciding you want to NDT your engine mount, have your engine removed, the mount inspected and everything assembled back? Costs you 5000 € I would estimate.

One should inspect the engine mount at the 50hr check. If it is painted white, any obvious cracks will be obvious.

I think the costs posted earlier are realistic on some old planes but not for the reasons given which were the costs of engine overhauls. I know of someone who used to run a syndicate around a C150 whose annuals were £7000. They were doing perhaps 150hrs/year so reaching 2k hrs in approx 12 years. (They had >20 shareholders so had to maintain on the UK Transport CofA regime, on which I think the 12 year engine life is mandatory). £7k x 12 = £84k so by the time the engine had to come out they had spent 84k maintaining (actually "constantly repairing" would be a much more correct term) the plane. Actually, adding in the cost of 50hr checks, you are closer to £100k. Against that huge figure, the overhaul of the O200 (?) engine is hardly overwhelming.

I do think many owners are poorly served by their maintenance companies.

I agree that using a US shop is a hassle and takes longer, but the job is generally much better.

What makes you say that? I have no reason to believe that a good overhaul shop in Europe is in any way worse than a good overhaul shop in the US. The only difference is size. The most important factor is the skill level and experience of the people doing the work and I would argue that good shops here are competitive in that regard. I know overhaul shops that go back to pre WW II, family run businesses (and they still overhaul engines from back then).

Sure one discovers "other stuff" but that is part of the general maintenance cost, I think.

There are a lot of things that do not need immediate attention, are expensive to replace but while the engine is removed, they get replaced because one day they will need replacement and it won't ever be as cheap as when the engine is removed.

Do you envision waking up one morning and deciding you want to NDT your engine mount, have your engine removed, the mount inspected and everything assembled back? Costs you 5000 € I would estimate.

The overhaul costs that Urs quoted are very realistic in my opinion. You cannot compare a 2002 airplane to the typical 1970s aircraft that make up 90% of the GA fleet.

In your case, you overhauled an engine in an airframe that was a few hours old. In most cases, the overhaul drags a whole lot of other things with it, because "while we're at it" and "now is the ideal time".

My engine was never overhauled.

I did the crank swap in 2008, followed by a total rebuild to new limits, and that was $14k plus shipping which was £500 there (air freight; supposedly 1 week) and about £1500 back (Fedex; would be 2x that now). Details here.

Engine removal and replacement is 2 days total - about £1500.

Sure one discovers "other stuff" but that is part of the general maintenance cost, I think. Many people get shocks because their plane doesn't get looked at properly at regular intervals and then there is a massive suprise when somebody new pokes their nose into places which nobody had poked their nose into before.

You should not need crankcase work, or new crankcases, unless

• they fail NDT (probably a prop strike, possibly undeclared)
• they are damaged (most likely due to not being screwed together correctly so they move about)
• you are on the 2nd or 3rd overhaul (not likely for a private owner if owned from the start - otherwise a multiple-overhauled engine ought to have been discounted at purchase time)

If you are on EASA-reg then you can use US shops but you have to use ones which are EASA approved.

There used to be a process whereby a DAR could sign an Export CofA (8130-4) and an engine done by a non EASA shop could go into an EASA-reg. The DAR charge used to be c. $300. This was applicable to engines and props. I don't know the status of this because the FAA stopped the Export CofA process 1-2 years ago so the Euro CAAs had to accept components without an Export CofA, or maybe not...

I agree that using a US shop is a hassle and takes longer, but the job is generally much better.

Peter,

Avionics don't add value anywhere near what their installation cost is. You have to like the plane and want to keep it long-term.

Absolutely. Otherwise sell and buy a plane which has what you need. However, that will be difficult now that the requirements change on almost a daily basis. There will be a HUGE problem coming up for the current IFR Fleet once the 8.33 requirement comes in force and for VFR a few years later. Especcially if one 8.33 radio is not enough but both of them need to be modified.

Transponder, there are cheaper ways. I got a Trig TT31, which is fully ADSB capable (and is operating today with the GNS430) for a lot less than the Garmin set.

Add to that the cost for the EASA paperwork. The last quote I had for the installation of an S-Tec AP and an Aspen in my setup to satisfy the 2 altimeter, HSI and 2 axis AP requirement for IFR included paperwork worth more than the purchase price of the Aspen! With the actual installation work, the price easily doubled the price of the whole avionic.

I will get some more offers once this becomes halfways realistic, but all in all, to get my aircraft (which by n-reg standard is fully IFR now) EASA IFR approved as it stands, it is just not viable. there are fully IFR certified airplanes available for less money than this upgrade would cost me.

Achim,

In my case I would expect 15-20k in additional costs due to that. Send the exhaust for overhaul, replace all exhaust couplings, easily 5k. Test the engine mount for cracks, paint it, 1k. Install new shockmounts, 1k, etc.

I agree and all this was done in my case as well.

And by the looks of it, the next thing which will happen is that the 12 year limit will be enforced too for private ops, as there was one accident where someone crashed with a 32 year old engine which had 1000 hrs since new....