Peter wrote:
That’s probably true, but it seems to me that if you buy a “really old plane” and keep it for say 10 years, you will spend as much in total as if you bought one (same model but newer) to start with using the same money which you spent over the 10 years, but crucially (as Bosco points out) with the second route you will have had much less downtime and you will have enjoyed your flying a lot more.
That may well be true, yet in that case, many people will never ever become owners in the first place. The price of entry is usually a big dissuading factor, also when you have to declare your wish to your family e.t.c. Still, I would say a VFR plane can still be found for a decent price of from around 30k up and an IFR one, albeit basic, from maybe 50-60k.
Personally, at the time I bought my plane, I did not have the money to buy a 100k airplane and never will. My budget then was about 50k, so I bought my Mooney and had the engine done a year later. Then I saved up for the Avionic upgrade 4 years later.
Could I have waited until 2014 until I had saved up for a plane which already had the upgrades I wanted? Apart from the fact that I did not find anything in this price class that I could also afford to fly and operate with everything I have now, it would have cost me 4 years of not flying and actually these 4 were my most active.
I know we do not live in India, but nevertheless, there are also different classes of people here. People who can afford brand new airplanes and much more others which can maybe scrape together a budget in the low tens of thousands. Yet many who make the step and buy a 30-50k airplane take great enjoyment of their purchase and would never have had the chance to do this if a new bells and whistles airplane would have been the only chance. Me, a lowly employee with medium salary will never own a new airplane, as much as I will never ever have a new car in my life. (I am on my 4 th car since learning how to drive in 1981, none of which were new.) Yet, being lower class income, I do own a house, a car and a plane, all of them used, all oft them needed work but they are MINE and I am proud of them. I can assure you, had I gone the “only new is good enough” route, I’d still be renting and probably be taking the bus to work every day.
So if you want to keep airplane ownership a rich man’s privilege, belittling older but affordable airplanes is just the way.
The main problem with “waiting for the perfect plane” is that for many people it will simply never happen and that a gradual process of upgrade may well be much more feasible and justifyable than waiting for the elusive new plane.
Even now, with all money spent on upgrades I would struggle to find a similar airplane in it’s current maintenance state and similar equipment. But the chances are much bigger that if I had not come back to flying in 2009, I would never have done so.
Mooney_Driver wrote:
The main problem with “waiting for the perfect plane”
It took me 6 years to find the airplane I was looking for, yes, and life is too short to aim for perfection in every step of the way…
I am of the “spend 1/2 your budget on the purchase and 1/2 on squawks” school. Anyone buying a used plane should expect 2-3 years of sorting the aircraft and unexpected downtime. You MUST have the money on hand to do the “unexpected” maintenance. I have easily spent more than the 27000 EUR price of the plane on upgrades and maintenance. But at the end, I have a reliable plane. Spending 50-60,000 at purchase would in no way have guaranteed that.
Retrospectively, I could have afforded much more plane, but I didn’t know that at the time. Doing non essential upgrades later allows you to spread the cost over time if your income is not highly predictable.
You wrote:
“I’d love to hear from other more experienced owners on this topic. Do I need to prepare myself for regular downtime, or is it normal to deal with this in the first year?”
This is normal for the first year (and for year 2!). If there is nothing wrong with the airframe, eventually you should wind up with a reliable aircraft. But it is amazing how many problems come to light when you waken an old airplane from the slumber of little use.
The huge advantage you have is that the maintenance is affordable for you. Thebiggest issue after money is finding a reliable mechanic.
Vref wrote:
BTW anyone has Turbo CR Twinkie for sale…preferably with de-ice props, looking for another (last) project maybe :-) ?
I know a Turbo Twinkie (one of the very last PA39 CR props) which could be for sale soon, in – as far as I know – good condition, N reg, quite well IFR equipped. With all speed mods, as the current owner outlines every time you talk to him. Could ask him. He’s not really willing to sell it, but not flying much. When I was looking for a Twinkie (before I found my Comanche) he told me that he’s open for offers.
Antonio wrote:
It took me 6 years to find the airplane I was looking for,
Me approximately 4… it was a fun time though.
I came back after a 10 year hiatus, before that I owned an IFR certified Cessna 150L which was the typical result of buying the flight school airplane I learnt to fly with. Well, not only. I wanted to build hours for my IR and CPL, and the 150 will let you do that. I was happy with that plane but literally outgrew it. Sold it for almost the exact same price I bought it, but did not get one penny for my investments. Still, it was a good time.
In between I flew PA28, Seneca I, II, III and Antonov 2. I had some hours on a Travel Air (loved it!) and TB20 (similar). So I was truely set in the 140-170 kt world.
First declared mission was to get a “simple” and “cheap” plane just to fly locally and a do a bit of “Luftwandern” (air hiking) from time to time. Secondary Mission was to fly to Bulgaria from time to time. I looked long and hard but in the end, only 3 serious contenders emerged.
Looked at an Arrow II. I came very close to buying it. It had a run out engine, single axis Piper Autocontrol but brand new paint job. Inside it was bright red. I looked at the maintenance bills and had a pre-buy done: just regular re-occurring items for the next two years would blow my budget sky high, not even taking into account that the engine would have to be redone.
I had a look at a wonderful Bonanza (1959 Model) which fell through because a) i could not have hangarage for a long time and was scared those magnesium Elevons would get damaged and b) because it had no range at all as it only had 44 USG usable. Otherwise it was great, S-Tec 50 AP, HSI, classic IFR (without GPS). I heard recently it flies in the Baltic States today.
I looked at a Robin HR100 which had a crazy range (1300 NM) but had not flown for 10 years. Price was on the upper end. I sat inside, closed the canopy and knew it would be a pain in the neck as I could not sit straight.
So I looked at a Piper Cherokee 140 nearby. It looked ok and it had one thing I desperately wanted: A basic Autopilot (Century II and Stec 30Alt). Otherwise totally VFR. Had they sold it to me for what it was worth, (I’d have said max 20k at the time), I would have immediately bought it. Yet I am glad I did not. That plane did 90 to 100 kts at best and during some test flights I almost fell asleep with that speed. They never actually managed to sell it because they wanted way too much for what it was worth. Finally it got picked up for parts, which was a shame.
While doing the pre-buy on that plane I was told of the Mooney I own today. It was owned, so I learnt, by a pilot I knew well. 1965 C model, manual gear and flaps, decently equipped and finally the performance and economy I wanted. Engine was also run out, but ran just fine. Price was so that I knew I could get the engine overhauled within my orginal budget.
So that is what I bought after doing the difference training and getting my SEP back on it. I still think it was a great buy: It will do 145 kts at about 9 gph and has been quite economical on airframe related maintenance. Cost drivers has been avionic and a snag in the starter system (which I could have had sorted MUCH faster if I had insisted on the original advice I got from the US). The airframe itself so far has not given me any problems at all. Next will be an upgrade in looks and interior and possibly a 2nd GNS430W (or non W if it is really cheap) for a 2nd 8.33 radio. I looked into upgrading the fuel tanks to Monroy Tanks, but unfortunately they are no longer available. But the range is fine as it is and payload with Monroys would be absymal.
My learning experience from all this was what I “preach” today: Yes it is possible to be an owner even of a complex medium performance airplane also for people who are on a low budget. And also, the vintage Mooneys are the all time champs for bang for buck. That has not changed: Go on planecheck today and find all 150 kt SEP’s for below 50k and you’ll end up with a couple of E and F model Mooneys and maybe the odd Grumman Tiger.
What would I buy if I had the money to buy a new to me airplane? Or even brand new?
Let’s say 500k to play with.
I would look really hard at various Cirrus offers. Why? The shute. Mainly the shute. But that shute would be a massive game changer I believe. Both in confidence, but also in acceptability for flying my family. And my mission to fly medium range (Switzerland – Bulgaria and back) relatively regularly.
For the same reason I would look really hard at Seneca Ii or III’s with max half time engines. I liked the Senecas I flew. They have good performance, a nice cabin for the pax, good range (123 USG tanks a must) and are common enough that anyone can fix them. I know I could get a good exemplar at around 150k max, maybe even cheaper and spend another 100k to make it my own, probably less because most of them already have the expensive bits.
Pressurized 210’s would also be a contender. While they do not have the shute, they are pressurized, which is good for the family and can fly fairly high over critical terrain. The higher you can fly, the longer you can glide. Most of them have very decent range too.
If my budget was 100K to buy (which means 200k all up)?
Most probably I’d keep my C model and finally get it painted. Beyond that?
Quite possibly I’d be looking for a J model Mooney with Monroy tanks or maybe a nice TB20 if I could find one which is in that price range.
If i had been looking, I’d have picked up the Cougar which was for sale few weeks back for about 40k (and apparently has been sold already). Or for a Twin Comanche, preferrably with Rajay’ Turbos if possible or if I would find a nice Travel Air. Recently I saw a nice Seneca I with almost new engines and about the same avoinics I have now. Even with that amount I’d go in the twin direction. Even a Seneca I will carry on flying if it looses an engine over flat lands and the sea.
Regardless of type, I’d like to have at least an Aspen, a 2 axis AP with FD and WAAS, best double. Ideally a GTN combo but I would take 2 430W or 430/530W. FIKI would be nice too.
But that is me. Most would decide differently.
One thing that hasn’t been discussed much in the thread is the limited types of planes that are available for rent in most places. For me personally the handling characteristics of the thing are maybe the most important part of flying – I fly for the experience and enjoyment of flying the plane as much any other reason. Reasonable speed is number 2, I do like to go places, but it’s not the highest priority. All weather capability has relatively little importance, for me personally, in my area. Something like a new Cirrus, owned or rented, is designed for a completely different set of interests and for me would be money wasted.
Moving closer to what is available to rent at reasonable cost: yesterday I flew with a friend in his IFR C180, basically an early 182 except for conventional gear, and he was kind enough to let me fly for much of the flight, lots of maneuvering, slow flight with and without flaps and so on, he wanted me to learn the manual flaps. The owner taught me to fly years ago so we tend to go back into instruction mode. There are a great many good reasons why C180s are in huge demand and command high prices, but the pleasure of flying for me was just not there. I like flying in the sense of the plane being a flying motorcycle. I’m not an SUV guy on the ground either.
When buying, the world of types, equipment and condition is your oyster: you can buy from all corners of the market including unusual planes if desired to find something that pushes your own individual buttons. This does not mean you pay more, it can mean you pay less and get more of what you personally want. Thinking about it it now I realize this is very important to me. Quite apart from my views on ownership itself (I like to own what I use) the choice of planes that one can rent easily would not keep me flying for long.
Silvaire wrote:
When buying, the world of types, equipment and condition is your oyster: you can buy from all corners of the market including unusual planes if desired to find something that pushes your own individual buttons. This does not mean you pay more, it can mean you pay less and get more of what you personally want.
It is however interesting, that the market at the moment is very much on the way up. Prices are up massively from about 2 years ago and also there are much less airplanes advertized. That is interesting.
I suspect that is temporary. Currently we are seeing a mad panic in other sectors e.g. electronic components. I have seen this many times before; prices can go up 5x in 6 months and then there is a bloodbath a few months later, because the underlying economics have not changed.
Could be that due to CV19 a lot of people have accumulated a lot of cash and are spending it. Plenty of people are certainly throwing tens of k at planes which are hardly flying; the avionics business is very happy.
The hike in plane prices could be due to the amount of older planes which is steadily decreasing and the acquisition cost of new planes is, well, almost ten fold. So the price delta between used and new paired with diminishing supply of affordable planes warrants higher prices.
A new Piper 100 or whatever it’s called is basically a Cherokee. Same engine, same speed etc… it’s around 400k USD new.
You can throw in a couple GI275 or G5s, a GPS and a GFC500 and get the same for less than 100k.
