I don’t think there is any small GA airplane out there that never had any damage, it’s just not realistic. OK, if it had been sitting in a desert hangar since new, with a perfectly preserved engine, maybe. Not likely.
The really important questions are:
- what was the damage?
- how and where did it get repaired?
- are the logs complete and coherent (I’ve seen some strange entries…)
Part of the problem is that the old, handwritten, entries are sometimes hard / impossible to decipher.
What the seller does or does not tell you is largely irrelevant. It’s the logs that count. This is why you need someone familiar with the type to do the paper prebuy and knows what he’s looking for.
This is not the case both for houses nor for any other sale, even in the UK. If the seller answers a specific question with a lie
That is what I posted but you quoted only a part of what I wrote 
The get-out method is to refuse to answer some or all questions. Refusing to answer anything on that sheet is not as suspicious as refusing to answer some 
The buyer then has to decide whether he still really wants the house. Personally I would still buy the house because litigation is unrealistic.
It’s not that different from getting a survey. You don’t have to get one, and actually a survey is of a very limited value, but without one a) you may not get a mortgage and b) you have nobody to sue if something turns up.
All this has very close parallels to planes.
It’s the logs that count
They can be forged, especially computer ones, and frequently are especially with hangar queens where the buyer will be looking for fairly regular flights.
Checking paperwork on certified planes is however crucial because if some AD is not logged as complied with, you have to do it [again]…
Another gotcha is engine overhaul
I inspected an aircraft where they claimed a fresh overhaul.
However after inspection it was NOT an overhaul by any stretch of the imagination. And no where near the standards. They didn’t even put new cylinders. Didn’t even change the hose! Its like how cheap can you be to not even change the hose.
Some Socata TB GT hoses are Teflon and these have no life limit, so no mandatory change at overhaul, although it is good practice to change them.
Socata charge a few k for the hoses, although with some braincells they can be obtained for much less from a Parker dealer like Saywells.
Cylinders can be cleaned up and if in spec can be re-used. On a non turbo engine there is a good chance there will be no cracks. But yes that is a cheap overhaul. I wonder why they did that? Was it to get a new 12 years? I cannot see why a TB20 in Europe would need that since – apart from some French schools, years ago – I am not aware of any ab initio training.
For any overhaul there must be a work pack. Ask where that is. The owner probably doesn’t have it – most have no idea it exists. But it will be somewhere…
There are several French national aviation schools who still use TB20s for training purposes such as IR and CPL. Look under ENAC.
But I think they are all sold afterwards through a Government sales site.
Peter that was an arrow not a tb20
I thought changing cylinders is one of the main objectives of a proper overhaul?
It’s very surprising that an aircraft can be sold dishonestly this way.
In cars, even if you don’t fill any specific paperwork, you can sue the previous owner for “hidden defect” if the engine had a major problem – even if the previous owner was not aware of it himself. In such cases it’s not rare that the previous owner has to pay for the engine repair or replacement (even if it’s more expensive than the purchase itself). As long as there’s a defect and the defect is not advertised, you have a court case. Of course you have to be willing to sue (it’s not mere regulation that enforces honesty by default). And it may be harded to properly characterize what a “defect” is in an aircraft which is a lot older than used cars, probably has had some modifications since the factory and undergoes regular heavy(ish) maintenance anyway. It could also be harder to find an expert / bailiff to properly observe the defect. Most car buyers don’t know about this, and don’t bother to pursue (which may explain why many sellers get away with it), but it’s a real thing in the legal system. It’s likely this could be applied to aircrafts.
maxbc wrote:
In cars, even if you don’t fill any specific paperwork, you can sue the previous owner for “hidden defect” if the engine had a major problem – even if the previous owner was not aware of it himself.
That must be highly country dependent. I don’t think the EU has any rules for car sales (or any other sales) between two individuals. Consumer protection laws relate to consumer-business transactions.
Rami1988 wrote:
I thought changing cylinders is one of the main objectives of a proper overhaul?
Overhaul is a normed term. The overhaul manual of ther respective engine will show exactly what has to be “done” at an overhaul.
Cylinders can be overhauled, too. They don’t have to be “changed” at overhaul. What is needed is merely that the cylinders meet the overhaul service limits specification criteria.
There are different definitions regarding work performed on any engine. Knowing what kind of work has been performed is paramount.
Lycoming has field overhaul, top overhaul, rebuilt, factory rebuilt, overhaul, and factory overhaul. There is some guidance in their FAQs:
Factory New – Everything in the engine or installed on the engine is brand new. The engine has a zero time since new and zero time since major overhaul. These engines are identical to what an OEM customer (such as Cessna or Piper) would be installing into their brand new aircraft. New engines carry a two-year factory warranty up to the hourly overhaul period listed in Service Instruction 1009. This engine choice makes sense for the customer that likes to have the peace of mind of having everything be brand new.
Factory Rebuilt – Every part used in building the engine meets or exceeds new part specifications; or the engine is like new. It has a zero time since new and a zero time since major overhaul. Some parts may be used, but they meet the same specifications as a new part. Like new engines, this engine carries a two-year factory warranty up to the hourly overhaul period listed in Service Instruction 1009. This engine choice is for the customers who are looking to have a return on their investment by adding value to their airframe.
Overhauled – The parts used to build the engine meet or exceed service limits and specifications. The engine carries the previously accrued total time since new, but has zero time since major overhaul. This engine also carries a one-year factory warranty up to the hourly overhaul period listed in Service Instruction 1009. An overhauled engine is best for the customer who is looking for the most cost-effective option, or for those who accrue hours very quickly and will likely run the engine through the next overhaul cycle. Some parts are no longer available new from the original equipment manufacturers, such as dual magnetos from Bendix/TCM. In these cases, those parts are overhauled by a reputable overhaul facility.
