AnthonyQ wrote:
That was the Mooney M10J….until it was cancelled…
It did not have a shute. I think that was one reason why nobody was interested.
Well, yes, but Mooney have practically zero credibility in today’s market, IMHO, there is close to zero interest in diesel in the USA, and no chute.
To market a diesel, one would have to start from outside the USA and establish there. It’s not a vast market (compared to the USA) but it is reasonable.
One would also need to do something on the customer service which over here tends to range from dreadful to atrocious. Socata were at war with their dealers in the last years, and what Diamond owners say about Diamond (off the record) is not much better. I think a newcomer ought to cut out the whole dealer chain (it is such a 1950s “car dealer” concept) and sell planes direct, and sell parts direct to owners and (with an installer discount obviously) to maintenance shops. That incidentally generates another 20% to be usefully deployed somewhere up the chain, which is a massive amount of money because it goes straight onto the margin on making the plane (it would probably double it). I’ve been in this game for 18 years and have not seen any middleman contributing anything of value whatsoever.
Even the stockists just order back to back from the factory; it’s a complete p1sstake… Just like most of the distribution world, but most distribution cannot be avoided (you cannot buy shampoo by mail order, for example). In aviation, most distribution absolutely can be avoided. Distis make more €€€ than the manufacturers, so cutting them out is highly desirable.
Yes why is it like this?
I can understand for my microlight as the manufacturer of the aircraft doesn’t hold the UK approval the dealer does. But then all the dealer does is order it from the manufacturer put it in a plastic bag and then mark up the price by five times over.
It’s also doubly annoying when the dealer doesn’t actually know much about the aircraft and you have to speak to the manufacturer to find out the parts required. In fact once we actually spoke to a guy on the shop floor who actually built the thing. He was a wealth of knowledge. But still the parts had to ship via the UK dealer which also delays the arrival of the parts.
Directly these parts were 150 euro’s via the dealer they were 750 quid.
Peter wrote:
To market a diesel, one would have to start from outside the USA and establish there. It’s not a vast market (compared to the USA) but it is reasonable.
I think anybody considering the investment in a new aircraft type would see fundamentals as a better basis for a long term business plan than avoidance of country specific fuel taxes that can change instantaneously.
Peter wrote:
I think a newcomer ought to cut out the whole dealer chain (it is such a 1950s “car dealer” concept)
Ummmm… The only substantial thing that’s left of the old aircraft dealer network in my part of the world is a few old neon signs that nobody has taken down. Many of the airframe manufacturers and TC holders sell parts directly (e.g. Vans, Univair etc), engine manufacturers sell parts directly, PMA suppliers sells parts directly. Aircraft Spruce is a parts dealer but earns their keep through 1 day delivery etc, a very different service based business model.
Obviously a newcomer would need to sell direct to consumer. The GA world has moved on and is no longer wrapped around manufacturers of new factory built airframes or archaic dealer practices – that’s a side show in 2018 and a new airframe manufacturer would be wise to change with the times.
It is like this because it has always been like this.
You want a Mercedes. You walk into a Merc showroom, they give you a nice snack and a coffee and a smooth guy talks some talk, takes your order, orders the Merc to your spec, and some time later you collect your Merc, give them a cheque and drive off with it. The dealer makes 15%.
You want a Cirrus. You walk into a Cirrus showroom, they give you a nice snack and a coffee and a smooth guy talks some talk, takes your order, orders the Cirrus to your spec, and some time later you collect your Cirrus, give them a cheque and fly off with it. The dealer makes 15%.
The perception is that this is how it should be. The French do it best of course, with really nice smoked salmon sandwiches and some “good view” 
Then after a few months you realise it was a total waste of your 30k (in 2002 money; a lot more today).
It probably always will be like that in the turboprop and above sphere. But not piston GA – once you exclude those who buy a new $1M SR22 every year (I am sure they like their dealer). Most old hands in the piston GA business are sick and tired of crap customer service and crazy prices. A European factory can ship anything next-day in Europe and in 48hrs to the USA, for €80 (for a small package).
Maintaining the dealer pipeline is a powerful factor, in most areas of business, but in this case it really does serve no purpose. When the dealer in Australia went bust, many years ago, Socata started selling parts there (and to NZ) directly 
I agree re fuel taxes, but this is what we have in Europe and it is probably here to stay, so you may as well take advantage of it And diesels burn a lot less fuel for the same HP.
Peter wrote:
You want a Mercedes. You walk into a Merc showroom, they give you a nice snack and a coffee and a smooth guy talks some talk, takes your order, orders the Merc to your spec, and some time later you collect your Merc, give them a cheque and drive off with it. The dealer makes 15%.
That is so 20th century My last two new car purchases involved internet and then phone negotiation with the dealer on a specific serial number ‘unit’ that the importers website had informed me met my spec and was in dealer stock 100 miles or more away. I shopped three or four dealers in parallel without stepping foot in any of them, then when the best deal was settled I spent 30-45 minutes picking up the car from one of them and stopped answering emails from the others Face to face discussions with the salesman mainly focused on “how did we do” on cost in relation to the other parallel negotiations, trying to mine some data for the next deal.
Peter wrote:
You want a Cirrus. You walk into a Cirrus showroom, they give you a nice snack and a coffee and a smooth guy talks some talk, takes your order, orders the Cirrus to your spec, and some time later you collect your Cirrus, give them a cheque and fly off with it. The dealer makes 15%.
Most new plane dealers are just FBOs that will take your order, no? Again, I don’t think that world actually exists today for many buyers. I couldn’t even tell you which FBOs will take orders for which planes. Anyway its not a big factor in the GA market and most 2018 owners buy their parts and services from whoever offers the best deal.
Peter wrote:
once you exclude those who buy a new $1M SR22 every year (I am sure they like their dealer). Most old hands in the piston GA business are sick and tired of crap customer service and crazy prices. A European factory can ship anything next-day in Europe and in 48hrs to the USA, for €80 (for a small package)
Exactly… and the piston GA buyers have generally moved on from that purchasing model, encouraged by PMA parts suppliers and so on. Except for me, sometimes My European OEM airframe parts supplier recently took two months to deliver in-stock parts at a very high price. I don’t begrudge the high prices, they were the ones smart enough to buy the old stock, but they could have delivered the parts in a week or less. Unfortunately the OEM is long inactive and this company is likely the only supplier of what I needed worldwide. Maybe the parts stock will in time pass to somebody a little more clued into the 21st century, and for Lycoming engine, Cleveland brakes, TSO panel etc stuff I’m not tied to a single supplier.
Yes; my last car was bought online too. I was just illustrating the standard “dealer” caricature which still exists in aviation. And, yes too, parts are bought direct where possible; nobody buys an oil filter from Socata.
But if you take Socata and Diamond, most airframe parts (and on Diamond most engine parts too) are special ones and have to come from the OEM, and only via their resellers. So a fuel filter from Socata is say €300 and if you contact the mfg (LeBosec or whoever) they tell you to f-off the instant they realise you are after a Socata part. Socata source mostly from France and have it all tied up. Diamond similarly.
The whole edifice is supported by Part M which forces almost everybody to using a company, and the company wants pricey parts to get the dealer discount contribution. Sure under 1200kg you can use a freelance EASA66 guy but (a) you need a hangar where you can work and (b) few EASA66 guys work freelance because most work full time and that would p1ss off their employer
So the world goes around.
Any newcomer would be stuck with the Part M / Form 1 treadmill and would have to build in shop discounts into parts prices, but that’s all. Everything else can be cut out, and everybody will benefit.
Peter wrote:
But if you take Socata and Diamond, most airframe parts (and on Diamond most engine parts too) are special ones and have to come from the OEM, and only via their resellers.
I don’t need paperwork, nor does anybody on Part 91, but I’m otherwise in essentially the same boat I chose to board it, to benefit from the low market price for a low volume production used plane that is so-afflicted (an RV is worth twice as much). This speaks volumes for the potential of the old world GA business model as applied to low volume production, as would be the case for a new type today, and even more so the LSA situation where PMA parts don’t exist. If you choose a plane based on easy parts supply and easy maintenance, long ago certified high volume airframes supported by PMA or used parts are the way to go, and homebuilts. Evidently, based on market demand and comparative depreciation, people do make their plane buying decisions on that basis.
Indeed, but what you describe is the way the N-reg scene works in the US, and the way the N-reg scene works in Europe but only if the owner has contacts, is clued-up, and has the facilities, which is quite unusual due to various restrictive practices here (insistence on the 8130-3, lack of hangarage where work can be done, etc).
The US scene has however always been like that, and the huge “cheap to run” airframe stock overhang has been there for decades, yet still Cirrus managed to get established there. So I think this is just a different community, which will probably never be penetrated with a new product. And Cirrus knew that, which is why their marketing was aimed at other people.
No new aircraft will be sold to a community which likes airframes from the 1920-1950 era. New products will be sold mostly to new communities, which marketing has to address. Whether these communities exist is the real Q, I think. Especially after Cirrus, and to a lesser extent Diamond, have fulfilled their niches.
Peter wrote:
No new aircraft will be sold to a community which likes airframes from the 1920-1950 era. New products will be sold mostly to new communities, which marketing has to address.
New factory built airframes aren’t terribly important to the business of light GA, that’s just fluff on the edges. New Cirruses and Diamonds (and their successors, if they come along) will slide into the normal GA world over time if production volume is enough to create an organic ‘type culture’ (my term) with supporting vendors. The only real issue there is maintenance problems written into manual ‘Limitations’, if they exist. My friend with the 2004 DA-40 has figured out any A&P can work on his plane (after only 14 years ) and that it actually has a Lycoming engine, not a Diamond engine His A&P buys parts from Diamond (presumably from a dealer somewhere) using his ‘good guy’ discount and splits the savings with him. Rust never sleeps.
Same thing with FAA LSAs, I’d bet 90% of the airframes will be converted to E-LSA (Experimental) 20 years from now.
