Jesse wrote:
It seems they are the CAMO for this aircraft, which also brings responsibility to them for the paperwork, making sure all times are kept etc. You don’t have to be under CAMO control if you don’t want to. You can also do the technicall administration yourself, quite some people think this is an easy job. To do this correct you should be able to access all manuals, to check if all maintenance is done correctly and according the current manuals. You would need to have access to maintenance data, such as manuals, not only from the aircraft, but also engine and compenents and keep this current. This cost money as well.
In Germany it standard to get the ARC from a CAMO (the alternative is the CAA but that is a rarely used road). However, that doesn’t mean the airplane is under CAMO control with operating time recording keeping etc. The customer can still determine when service is due. The maintenance required is then determined automatically by the software of the CAMO, this takes a minute. They all have some software package that includes all bulletins, ADs, etc. I was never charged extra for that, it’s part of the standard annual fee.
€6000 for a prop overhaul is really top money – it’s about 50% over the top of a top grade reputable firm. But the €2000 paperwork fee? On a prop overhaul??
Jesse wrote:
I think you can say anything like that, without any evidendance.
Well, you’re right. Obviously, I do not have the invoices but have seen them.
And I don’t want to say maintenance should be cheap, but they seem to be expensive and the only justification I can see is that they’re “on site” and so is the majority of their customers.
Jesse wrote:
It seems they are the CAMO for this aircraft, which also brings responsibility to them for the paperwork,
I was told that the CAA checks all the paperwork at each CoA renewal, but still.
Honestly, charging 900 EUR for the CAA CoA inspection ? That’s a day’s worth of an expensive IT consultant.
Without being mean, I think it’s a pretty high daily rate for this administrative task…
Jesse wrote:
If this is actually cheaper will also be based on your skills. It is not for those who don’t have a technical view, then it can be more expensive by ruining equipment. You will known your own skills, so decide if this is something for you. It can also be more expensive because they need to educate you on how things work. Educating while working always cost more time. You do benefit from this however, as you can get a better understanding on systems etc.
You are perfectly right.
As I said, for starters I would not do anything much myself. And I don’t know if even afterwards I would do it, simply because of the time it takes from other activities (read : family)
But I wrote it because I know it is one of Peter’s “marottes” (french 
) and therefore state that I was interested in shop maintenance for now.
Anyone here under CAMO ?
Of those who are not, what is your experience w.r.t. paperwork and the relation with your CAA ?
But I wrote it because I know it is one of Peter’s “marottes” (french ) and therefore state that I was interested in shop maintenance for now
The thing to do is ask for a breakdown. That cost is very high. The UK cost is about GBP 3500 for a Hartzell 3B prop, plus VAT. And that’s by a top grade shop and is the same for EASA-reg and N-reg aircraft.
But maybe there was an “issue” which had to be resolved. Maybe it was discovered that somebody installed a prop which was very slightly different to the one on the type certificate, and the firm had to do tons of paperwork to apply for a mod.
The problem is that you have to ask – what else is like that?
Anyway, you asked for views so you are getting some I’ve been an aircraft owner for 13 years… otherwise, yeah, they are worth what you are paying for them.
Peter wrote:
€6000 for a prop overhaul is really top money – it’s about 50% over the top of a top grade reputable firm. But the €2000 paperwork fee? On a prop overhaul??
Is that a 2 blade or 3 ?
Does it include new de-ice boots ?
How ’bout remove/install labour & transport to the prop shop ?
VAT included ?
About the only way you might justify €6K for a typical GA prop overhaul is “worst case” scenario on ALL of the above, otherwis, a complete rip-off .
PapaPapa wrote:
And I don’t want to say maintenance should be cheap, but they seem to be expensive and the only justification I can see is that they’re “on site” and so is the majority of their customers.
Why not just ask other customers as well, and feel if they think the price is ok or not? Or ask the shop, that you have the feeling that they are expensive, they might be able to explain. Ask the current owner to review the invoices again, and see how detailed they are, and compare these with the work report?
For the prop example, did they change anything on the prop? Could it be that some parts where scrap / beyond overhaul limits and needed to be renewed, did they change to another overhauled prop (different P/N requiring certification paperwork)? This information should be available in the technicall and financial administration.
I think those that say they are to expensive or even rip you of couldn’t say so, based on the information provided. They might be to expensive, but the only way to tell is to check this for yourself into more detail.
achimha wrote:
The customer can still determine when service is due. The maintenance required is then determined automatically by the software of the CAMO, this takes a minute. They all have some software package that includes all bulletins, ADs, etc. I was never charged extra for that, it’s part of the standard annual fee.
Sure, but this software and the licenses for all manuals don’t come for free, so you will pay one way or the other for this. At some companies this included, others charge it separate.
Peter wrote:
Anyway, you asked for views so you are getting some
Absolutely and I’m happy about that and value them all, as I am not one yet
Michael wrote:
Is that a 2 blade or 3 ?
Does it include new de-ice boots ?
How ’bout remove/install labour & transport to the prop shop ?
VAT included ?
Jesse wrote:
Or ask the shop, that you have the feeling that they are expensive, they might be able to explain.
Jesse wrote:
the only way to tell is to check this for yourself into more detail.
3 blade – electrically de-iced. Boots ? are the heat pas on the prop called boots ? Then yes they probably are as they looked new/recently glued.
Don’t know about shipping.
As VAT is calculated at the bottom of the invoices, I say it’s without but cannot be certain about it.
All your questions are very precise and very valid and I do not have copies of the invoices, so I will go to the shop and ask them details directly.
I think how I will be treated will also be a good indication of relationship with potential customers.
As for other customers, I can ask the club’s “fleet manager’s” opinion.
I do have a friend who does not give them his Cirrus any more (despite them being a Service centre) because they did something not according to the maintenance manual.
Will report back when and if I know more
