Peter: come fly with me on a trip in the Cirrus. I am sure you will love it. :-)
And remember, if in doubt, pull the handle! :)
come fly with me on a trip in the Cirrus. I am sure you will love it. :-)
Don't get me wrong - I have flown in the 22 and 22 and I do like them. I didn't think much of the STEC55X in the 20...
I visit a lot of Cirrus events and cannot confirm that the typical Cirrus pilot I meet is considering the Cirrus as a kind of luxury car
Perhaps, European owners are not the same population as the US owners. What are the respective Cirrus populations in the two regions, and what are the numbers of chute pulls?
The IR-holder proportions have to be different. As an IR holder since 2006 (and the IMCR since 2002) I cannot see the point of a Cirrus, especially the SR22, without an IR, in Europe. Or the TB20 for that matter. But in the USA you can fly VFR up to 17999ft, in the vast regular airspace, with easy transits of Class B,C,D zones. It's like France but much bigger and better and instead of FL115 you can go to FL180. But in Europe, an IR is hugely useful even just as an "airspace access ticket" even if you almost never enter IMC. I bet you that loads more of US Cirrus pilots have only a PPL, and are happy with that.
Peter, I think these stereotypes about wealthy pilots buying Cirrus or whatever are rarely fair. It is true given the cost of the aircraft that you must have more money to buy one - same with a TBM. But I doubt an objective view of the fact swould show that their pilots are significantly less safe than others doing the same sort of flying.
All I notice when meeting Cirrus pilots is that they are all serious about their flying and I have not yet encountered the so called rich guy buying the Cirrus but treating it not seriously. Not all pilots might have the same proficiency, but then I see them taking less risks or flying only with almost perfect weather to long runways. I think it is the same in the PA46 and many other aircraft apart maybe from the aeroclub aircrafts like the PA28 and C152/C170 where I meet lots of pilots that hardly know how to fly or even land and still fly around on nice summer weekend days to nearby known locations.
Peter
A couple of comments to things you have said in various posts, as you say, in the spirit of opening up discussion :)
Firstly, it's not like wearing a parachute and jumping out as soon as something goes wrong: COPA is not advocating yanking the handle the minute a warning light comes on (I caricature in the same way that you do!) :)
What Rick actually said, as you yourself quote, was: "Make CAPS the first CONSIDERATION" not the first ACTION (my capitalisation)
The reason is to keep the fact that you have CAPS available prominent in your thinking throughout your handling of the emergency.
I have had two real emergencies in the six years and about 1100 hours I have flown my SR22. In neither case did I pull the chute, although once I did think I might have to (partial loss of engine power at about 500 ft just after takeoff although I did have enough to climb), but in both cases a very early action was to put my hand on the handle to remind myself that it is available.
The reason is that it's easy to get so fixated on troubleshooting that you can forget that you have CAPS.
By the way, I don't only do this after an emergency has happened. For example, my routine 400 ft departure call outs are: Flaps (Airspeed good, positive climb, flaps up), CAPS (Touch the handle to remind myself it's available, TAPS (Engine Temperatures and Pressures) MAPS (Switch to the maps page on the MFD).
As I say, the point is to make CAPS part of potential emergencies handling rather than a sort of bolt on afterthought.
You also say that any instructor should be able to do some sort of PFL or, at least, land at lower speed. Yes.
Like this one, for example?
http://www.fomento.gob.es/NR/rdonlyres/2B31A8A2-6642-44F3-9B8F-BDED78CC8CE1/118856/2011042A_ENG.pdf
Summary: DA20, engine failure, off airport PFL, apparently experienced instructor, 300 hours in type, aircraft with much lower stall speed than a Cirrus, two people killed.
COPA membership includes several very high hours instructors who appear to be absolutely unanimous in their advocacy of the line presented in Rick's presentation, and who are adamant that they themselves would pull CAPS in preference to an off airport PFL. Me too!
You also take a couple of pilots to task for deploying CAPS in circumstances where you and, frankly, I would almost certainly not have done so: in my case, at least not immediately.
There was a fatal Cirrus accident some years ago when a pilot mishandled a door coming open in flight. I agree it shouldn't be a big deal (I have had it happen to me a couple of times and it isn't), but nonetheless the accident pilot got it wrong and died.
The fact that the pilot who pulled the chute in this case made the decision that he was in over his head and pulled is, IMHO, his alone to make and I for one wouldn't criticise him for doing it in the circumstances that he alone felt at the time.
As regards the upset at 13000 ft: neither of us knows what caused it. Turbulence? A controls failure? All we know is that the pilot found himself upside down with no idea of what had happened.
You have probably done upset recovery / aeros as have I, but probably he hadn't. He may also have thought about the fatal accident when a Cirrus got into an uncontrolled dive following an icing encounter and hit 287 KTS before the pilot pulled yanking the chute off the plane (VPD is 133 KIAS although there have been successful deployments at about 185 ).
One of my "deaths" in the Cirrus simulator I flew for emergencies training happened when my instructor failed my horizontal stabiliser. I tried to fly the "plane" and was going way over 200 KTS in an uncontrollable dive in what seemed like no time at all.
The bottom line is that, whether these were good pilots or not, they are both alive pilots. I haven't been back to the record to check if they had passengers on board but if they did, they are also alive.
Sadly, there are far to many pilots, and passengers, who have died either because they had no chute or, perhaps worse, who did have one and the pilot chose not to use it or forgot he had it.
It's easy to second guess their decisions down here but remember: there's no reset button up there. There is an old saying: "before you would judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes" ;)
BTW I agree with you about the STEC! I have a DFC 90 in mine which you're welcome to come and try!
I visit a lot of Cirrus events and cannot confirm that the typical Cirrus pilot I meet is considering the Cirrus as a kind of luxury car.
Sjoerd
You are right as far as the pilots we meet at COPA events such as the Pilots Proficiency Program (CPPP) go, but I suspect that there are some Cirrus drivers who are not members of COPA, may have bought their planes second hand and therefore not had factory training, whose transition training, if any, may not have been with a CSIP and who have never been to a CPPP.
Perhaps some of these pilots, and I don't think it is limited to Cirrus pilots, do see flying in that way.
It is no coincidence that, as I understand it, the accident rate amongst pilots of that type is very much worse than amongst those that have been properly trained and do participate.
Sadly, though, we all seem to get tarred with the same brush. :(
I don't think I disagree with anything you say, Jonzarno. It's a question of emphasis mostly. If it was me, I would probably
in the case of a structural failure which results in a loss of control, pull the chute right away
in the case of an engine failure, glide away from towns etc, to some fields if possible, and pull the chute at ~ 1000ft AGL. Pulling the chute, on a perfectly flyable plane with no engine, at 5000ft above a town, is just stupid, and as we now know the chute may not open in which case you are back to a forced landing...
But, and this is a big "but" in the context of the Cirrus chute debate, the above is (or most definitely should be) a very small % of accidents. If there weren't, GA as we know it would be unworkable and most pilots would be dead or crippled.
It is all the other accidents which people pick on when they comment unfavourably on the chute pulls.
As you say, hard to put oneself in the shoes of those people but the general view seems to be that e.g. the chap with the door open did not have the chute, he would have calmed down, flown back to some airport with it, would have possibly got a big bill for the door hinge repairs, and nobody would know.
And I am sure the insurers take a similar view. If the insurers paid out on a hull loss for a structural failure or an engine failure only, they would be very happy.
That said, I know of a TB10 pilot who many years ago crashed and killed himself apparently because the luggage door was open, so there is some strange psychology at work sometimes.
in the case of an engine failure, glide away from towns etc, to some fields if possible, and pull the chute at ~ 1000ft AGL. Pulling the chute, on a perfectly flyable plane with no engine, at 5000ft above a town, is just stupid, and as we now know the chute may not open in which case you are back to a forced landing...
I agree with this: if I had the situational awareness to do so, that's how I'd handle this scenario as well. BTW I often program my No2 Garmin direct to my nearest airport. That gives me a distance and a cyan arrow on my HSI that tells me if I can make it or not. Having done that, my "hard deck" is having an assured glide approach to a suitable runway at 1000 ft or I pull.
I think you shouldn't put to much store in the report on the CAPS system that failed to deploy.
There have actually been two incidents:
The first happened a number of years ago and resulted in an AWD which should prevent that incident from recurring
The recent incident involved a recently repacked chute, and we don't yet know what happened, although I believe it won't be long before we do. Viewed in the context of the number of successful deployments, it wouldn't stop me from pulling if circumstances warranted it.
As regards the guy with the door, you may well be right: he might have done that. Certainly just flying to an airport is what I would have done: indeed I have done so a couple of times when it has happened to me.
But I'd rather he pulled than that he emulated the pilot in the TB 10 or the earlier Cirrus accident.
No, I bet the cover just flew away after impact. It is really only lightly bonded to the fuselage, and when the plane comes down like this the fuselage will bend extremely – and the cover will pop. I am almost sure CAPS was not activated. And it looks like they were too low anyway, at least some witnesses seem to have said that …
