derek wrote:
Why couldn’t you do that with a PPL?
you could.
derek wrote:
If I understand the term ‘commercial operations’ properly (at least in an EASA context), then the scenarios for solo paid stuff which you mention, such as ferry flights, crop spraying, etc., ARE commercial operations. If it is true that at least some of them do not require an AOC, then my point (2) is incorrect.So, are there any paid ‘commercial activities’ where an AOC is not required?
You need an AOC for the commercial transportation of passenger or cargo. Ferrying and crop spraying are neither. Nor are e.g. survey flights. None of these require an AOC.
Peter wrote:
Whoever supplied the plane (to the said pilot, to fly) is the operator. This is the standard “private flight” corporate etc scenario.
Can you find a reference to that? EASA has for some reason decided not to define “operator.” But how can a renter be considered the operator without control over how the aircraft is used?
you need an AOC for the commercial transportation of passenger or cargo. Ferrying and crop spraying are neither. Nor are e.g. survey flights. None of these require an AOC.
You can transport your company’s products (e.g. deliver to customers) on just a PPL, so it isn’t so clear cut.
Survey flights, like parcel delivery flights, do need an AOC if the business offers the service to external customers.
Can you find a reference to that? EASA has for some reason decided not to define “operator.”
Presumably because there are easy ways around that. The IOM will issue you with an “operator certificate”, for example. So it would be for a court to find on the facts, and it will be country-dependent.
But how can a renter be considered the operator without control over how the aircraft is used?
He does have effective control. If his wife wants to be flown to Cannes for a spot of shopping, that is where the plane will go. But is it necessary for any purpose, anyway?
Airborne_Again wrote:
You need an AOC for the commercial transportation of passenger or cargo. Ferrying and crop spraying are neither. Nor are e.g. survey flights. None of these require an AOC.
Thanks. Does that also include the case of say a company selling crop spraying services which hires its own pilots? What about aerial photography? I vaguely remember that being one of the questions that examiners would ask on a CPL flight test, and that the answer was you needed an AOC, but I couldn’t find any reference in the EASA documentation after a quick search.
This hinges on whether you are selling these services to outsiders – as I wrote above.
You can deliver your company’s products, with just a PPL (so long as you are not compelled to FLY, etc). No AOC.
Same with photography. If you are a photographer you can take your own pics, on just a PPL.
You can fly company employees around on just a PPL (so long… as above).
I have never seen a site carrying references to this stuff. It just comes up over the years in various local-CAA guidance, and in case law (the UK CAA usually settles out of court because they don’t want to create precedents which push the boundaries, and I am sure every other CAA will do the same). Smart freelance corporate pilots know this stuff well and avoid the grey areas.
To clarify, if I understood the above posts correctly, my point (2) from the previous post:
(2) Work as a pilot for the operator of an aircraft in non commercial activities (since if the operator wished to undertake commercial activities, they would need an AOC)
is wrong.
‘Commercial activities’ ≠ ‘AOC is required’
but Peter and Airborne_Again seem to suggest different interpretations.
(2) Work as a pilot for the operator of an aircraft not engaged in the carriage of passengers or cargo (company’s own employees ≠ passengers and company’s own freight ≠ cargo)
vs
(2) Work as a pilot for the operator of an aircraft not selling services (or perhaps Peter meant only a PPL can’t do this, but a CPL can as long as it isn’t carriage of passengers or cargo)
Peter wrote:
Survey flights, like parcel delivery flights, do need an AOC if the business offers the service to external customers.
I rely on what’s actually written in the regulations.
The Basic Regulation defines CAT thus: ‘commercial air transport’ means an aircraft operation to transport passengers, cargo or mail for remuneration or other valuable consideration;
If you look at the Air Ops Regulation, there are only two categories of commercial operations – CAT and “Specialised Operations.” CAT requires an AOC – see ORO.AOC.100 (a). Specialised Operations do not require an AOC – indeed they don’t even require a permit/license but simply a declaration – see ORO.DEC.100 (a).
Survey flights are explicitly listed as an example of Specialised Operations – see SPO.GEN.005 (a).
So packet delivery flights do require an AOC, but survey flights do not!
derek wrote:
but Peter and Airborne_Again seem to suggest different interpretations.(2) Work as a pilot for the operator of an aircraft not engaged in the carriage of passengers or cargo (company’s own employees ≠ passengers and company’s own freight ≠ cargo)
vs
(2) Work as a pilot for the operator of an aircraft not selling services (or perhaps Peter meant only a PPL can’t do this, but a CPL can as long as it isn’t carriage of passengers or cargo)
I’m getting slightly confused now. But let me restate instead. The pilot needs a CPL (or higher) if either
(Note that there are some exceptions where a flight which should properly be considered commercial is not. E.g. “introductory flights” and parachute jumper flights which can be done by a PPL holder even if the pax pay for the flight, as long as the pilot doesn’t get any compensation.)
Not strictly true. I have a business (technically I am an employee; a Director is an employee of the company) but I can deliver goods to my customers. I am “paid” because I am paid for being an employee.
But I don’t need a CPL for those flights, nor is an AOC needed. Why? Because I am not contractually bound to fly. I am not contractually bound to do anything actually I could just screw the business into the ground, if I wanted to.
If I had an employee who was a private pilot, he could also visit my customers / deliver stuff to them. Same reason as above. I cannot force him to fly. He can take a train, a bus, an airline, a car…
If I “forced” him to fly (i.e. he was a “company pilot” and had to fly, no option to take a train etc) then he would need a CPL. The company would provide the plane, of course, and then it is a “private flight” just like all the “company bizjet” ops. Some company bizjets are on AOCs but that’s because they get leased to a charter outfit, to get some money back; it is not required for the owning company’s ops.
The exceptions always demolish a general rule 
The parachute stuff on a PPL has for decades been a grey area which ran throughout the industry and was “accepted” so long as everybody kept their mouth shut. Of course the pilots get paid. Nobody is going to fly to such an arduous schedule for nothing. Often the regs were foreign-reg e.g. Hungarian for paradropping in Spain, and then the Spanish CAA looks the other way (looking “the other way” is another accepted practice in S Europe ) This is gradually changing, I am told. A number of people have had NDEs. in that business, too…
“Introductory flights” (different things in different countries) have also been “on the edge” of what JAA/EASA was regulating. The national CAA is happy with these things because of a long standing culture in the country concerned, and good political connections between GA organisations and the govt. Whether the pilot is actually paid is debatable because he/she can log the flight time, which is free flying, which is a “benefit”, which is thus equivalent to a payment. It’s just like a school getting some PPL holder to fly one of their planes for maintenance.
