Are we entitled to CAS entry?

Seeing how particularly VFR is treated in the US vs Europe, I think that denials into classes B e.t.c. are comparatively rare and usually happen for good reason i.e. emergency or traffic overload.

If you ask for a VFR transit through Class B that happens to be through the final approach for a busy military fast jet base, you won’t get it unless they aren’t busy. That isn’t a function of the airspace class or you being VFR, and if there’s another convenient route to your destination (i.e. overhead the airport) you can get that one instead. Mostly those transits aren’t necessary because the airspace is laid out to provide easy access to all the local airports. The most common ones are through the Class D of a different but adjacent airport and those are essentially never refused.

gallois wrote:

The difference between IFR and VFR in CAS (apart from rules in avoiding clouds etc in VFR are different inside CAS and outside) is basically, as others have said, the Flight Plan.

Actually this made me think a little. I spoke to the Luxembourg ARO asking for advice how to correctly file VFR flight plans, specifically asking what I must do so that the flight plan gets forwarded to any ATC unit that I will need to speak to for any CAS transits. And the answer I got is that I should list the airports in the route even if I don’t plan cross them exactly for better awareness so that they forwarded it to them but that generally they’ll do this regardless.

This made me further think that maybe the issue is how we file VFR flight plans. Since most of my departures are from a controlled airport my flight plans go to our ARO first and they address it further to other ATS units that I will come in contact with. But what if you’re taking off at an uncontrolled field and file via a FF or some website. Who gets this flight plan then? Just the destination airport ARO? Does it also get addressed to all ATS units that should have it for your route? Who makes sure that is done?

Per SERA:
SERA.4001 Submission of a flight plan
(b) A flight plan shall be submitted prior to operating:
(1) any flight or portion thereof to be provided with air traffic control service;

On my flights, I almost never do abbreviated in-flight flight plans, meaning I just call up with my call sign, type of flight, position, alt and I add I have a flight plan and I don’t give them more than that and they usually have all the details. Could it be that you’re getting denied entry into CAS because you’re trying to submit an in-flight flight plan just to transit and the controller doesn’t have the time to do that? Or you call too late?

Another point is that I never wait for FIS to ask for my intentions, when I’m 5min before a CAS I request frequency change to APP for transit, I never ask the FIS to coordinate that for me.

Again, clearly some of us have no or rare problems with this issue and I think it comes down to some details how we all go about trying to do this that makes all the difference. I don’t know exactly what you do wrong, but I do know that what I do works and actually works like clockwork. In fact the treatment I most often get is identical to IFR traffic i.e. I am treated as if was IFR traffic even being asked to fly IFR levels.

Peter wrote:

So, simple logic says, the VFR pilot OCAS has no right of access.

Studying Airlaw for ATPL right now I can tell you no regulation supports your claim. My post on page 1 that everyone ignored lists the framework and it supports that yes in fact we are entitled to ATC service and access to CAS.

Peter wrote:

In Europe, this “requirement” is disregarded practically everywhere.

You just don’t know you’re on a flight plan because it was done for you by the controller just for the transit of the CAS when you called up and asked to transit.

Peter wrote:

So, simple logic says, the VFR pilot OCAS has no right of access.

I’d say that to some degree, no pilot has right to access any CAS (except Class E under VFR) – even if you are at Southend in Class D, you might receive a CTOT delaying your IFR depurture until 5th of Never.
Just like with public road? Some chunk of motorway might be closed and you have no chance of confirming the real reason why it was closed (there would be of course a declared excuse).
Same if you are VFR and trying to enter Class D from OCAS (“denied because of …”, but you have chance of verifying that claim) or trying to enter CAS from OCAS under an IFR flight plan as instructed by London Control (ATC just ignore you).

Peter wrote:

So, simple logic says, the VFR pilot OCAS has no right of access.

And furthermore, if this were true how could we ever choose to fly to a controlled airport within a CTR? A CTR is CAS. You must be entitled to enter to land otherwise planning to arrive there is infeasible. And do you ever wait for any sort of confirmation before your VFR departure that you have your access to their CTR guaranteed? Of course not. But you do have to file a flight plan.

arj1 wrote:

I’d say that to some degree, no pilot has right to access any CAS (except Class E under VFR)

As @gallois keeps repeating. We are in fact all, IFR and VFR, entitled to access, but ATC is entitled to refuse temporarily if they have a good reason to do so.

hazek wrote:

arj1 wrote: I’d say that to some degree, no pilot has right to access any CAS (except Class E under VFR)

As gallois keeps repeating. We are in fact all, IFR and VFR, entitled to access, but ATC is entitled to refuse temporarily if they have a good reason to do so.

In theory, yes, that is correct, but in practice – have you got any means of verifying their claims? ATC says “no capacity” or something else and you take it at a face value – they might have a plenty of capacity but the people that are providing that extra capacity want to watch football. :)

hazek wrote:

We are in fact all, IFR and VFR, entitled to access, but ATC is entitled to refuse temporarily if they have a good reason to do so.

That is the way I understand it as well.

Silvaire wrote:

If you ask for a VFR transit through Class B that happens to be through the final approach for a busy military fast jet base, you won’t get it unless they aren’t busy.

LOL, yea, well, I’d call that a good reason.

To be fair, in practice you can tell real quick what your chances are. If you dial up the frequency and it’s machinegun instructions all along and you see that the airport you are trying to cross is obviously in rush hour, you may still try to call them if you can get through but expect to be told no. On the other hand, I overheard last weekend quite a few airspace D crossings in the rush hour in ZRH and they were approved without any problem. (Mostly S-W for those who know the airspace but also some E-W or E-S and vice versa). I doubt that any of them had a flight plan.

Peter wrote:

So, simple logic says, the VFR pilot OCAS has no right of access.

Legally speaking and according to SERA e.t.c. that statement is wrong. You can’t enforce that right as much as you can’t enforce your right of way on a cross roads but generally you have every right to access CAS (safe A for VFR) provided you are under ATC control which clearly implies that ATC has the right to deny access or to re-route you if they have operational reasons to do so.

You might as well ask, am I entitled to fly the IFR route you have filed waypoint per waypoint as it’s filed? The answer would be similar: In principle yes but in practice ATC will reroute you if they deem necessary and, given the often kafkaeske routings we get, quite possibly to do you and themselves a favour by cutting corners.