From here
Frans wrote:
compared to the Milano class A airspace, where I got a VFR clearance twice.
This is interesting.
I got a clearance from a Madrid TMA controller once to fly VFR within their Class A (due to thermal turbulence at low height). This was some years ago.
After the event, I discussed it with some pilot friends who said I should be careful with this because I could potentially get in trouble myself. My answer was: “well if ATC clears me to fly in that airspace, how on earth should I get in trouble?” and the response being something like “well if a policeman clears you to murder someone else that doesn’t men you won’t be convicted of murder!, you are still responsible for complying with the law”. The example is obviously a far-fetched fallacy but there’s something to it. I don’t know whether a controller clearing a VFR flight into Class A constitutes both negligence on part of the controller and the pilot, or just the controller, or neither.
It is illegal but whether a conviction is possible would depend on the country.
In the UK it would be impossible to convict someone. In some other countries not so far away, I am sure it would be possible.
I don’t know the legal argument but e.g. in the UK a citizen is entitled to rely on advice issued by an official body. He is not required to verify whether the advisor has the required authority, clearance, etc.
I have been cleared on a VFR flight through the Class A west of Italy a couple of times 
And through Class A around Alicante.
Interesting that presumably these controllers didn’t know the airspace rules. Or they thought you were IFR, but that is highly unlikely in the conditions (very low level, etc).
@Alpha_Floor post moved to a new thread
Alpha_Floor wrote:
So I don’t know whether a controller clearing a VFR flight into Class A constitutes both negligince on part of the controller and the pilot.
The new SERA rules prohibits it, the legacy ATC manuals still allow it, I gather the latter makes it legal? if you want more contradictions, there is VMC minima definition for Alpha in SERA, why?
AFAIK, 14th of July formation flights are flown over Paris on VFR clearances without changes of CAS class or SERA exemption
I’ve asked for it a couple of times (Gatwick, really thermally day, and Amsterdam down to 1500’ far out to sea) but no dice.
Ibra wrote:
there is VMC minima definition for Alpha in SERA, why?
Because sometimes an IFR flight may want to determine whether it’s flying in VMC or IMC, for example to allow descend below MRVA, to do a visual approach etc.
Ibra wrote:
14th of July formation flights are flown over Paris on VFR clearances without changes of CAS class or SERA exemption
Are those not military or state flights? Surely they operate under some kind of exemption. They are not a “normal” VFR flight.
Alpha_Floor wrote:
Because sometimes an IFR flight may want to determine whether it’s flying in VMC or IMC
I really doubt it? you won’t be able to cancel IFR and fly VFR in Alpha anyway
Alpha_Floor wrote:
for example to allow descend below MRVA, to do a visual approach etc.
If you are talking Germany MRVA, there is no class Alpha down there, besides, you are not allowed to descend bellow MRVA under IFR there even if you swear it’s CAVOK, you will have to cancel and switch VFR
You can now understand why it’s impossible to have Alpha airspace in Germany, especially under MRVA, someone spent time thinking about this
I don’t remember you need Alpha VMC (5km visibility & 1500ft ceiling) to conduct visual maneuvering under IFR?
- You can always descend during cruise under IFR with ground in sight irrespective of in-flight visibility
- You can fly straight-in final visual approach to runway with 800m and ground in sight
- You can fly circling visual approach to runway with 1500m and runway is in sight
Surely they operate under some kind of exemption
Yes – e.g. the Spitfire is nowadays on a CAA Permit, and this is VFR-only. So the ceremonial overflights of London are on a permit of some sort (Non Standard Flight?).
- You can fly straight-in final visual approach to runway with 800m and ground in sight
- You can fly circling visual approach to runway with 1500m and runway is in sight
Not applicable; a visual approach is a procedure under IFR.
Ibra wrote:
I really doubt it? you won’t be able to cancel IFR and fly VFR in Alpha anyway
IFR/VFR are flight rules. IMC/VMC are meteorological conditions. The two are completely independent which is something that many very experienced pilots surprisingly don’t understand for some reason (I don’t mean you, it’s something that comes up when flying with other pilots)
I don’t see any issues with having a VMC definition in Class A airspace. It’s not implying that VFR is or “could” be allowed in Class A.
Ibra wrote:
If you are talking Germany MRVA, there is no class Alpha down there, besides, you are not allowed to descend bellow MRVA under IFR there even if you swear it’s CAVOK, you will have to cancel and switch VFR
You can now understand why it’s impossible to have Alpha airspace in Germany, especially under MRVA, someone spent time thinking about this
I’m not talking about Germany, I’m talking in the general sense. As far as I know the VMC minima for each airspace class are an ICAO definition. There’s even a note in the definition addressing this:
The VMC minima in Class A airspace are included for guidance to pilots and do not imply acceptance
of VFR flights in Class A airspace.
Peter wrote:
Not applicable; a visual approach is a procedure under IFR.
It’s what I said, visual approach is under IFR (and does not require VMC)
Alpha_Floor wrote:
I’m not talking about Germany, I’m talking in the general sense. As far as I know the VMC minima for each airspace class are an ICAO definition. There’s even a note in the definition addressing this:
The VMC minima in Class A airspace are included for guidance to pilots and do not imply acceptance
of VFR flights in Class A airspace.
I did read that as well, I still don’t understand why you need to know if you are VMC for IFR in Alpha?
Do you have a single user case where knowing you are VMC is useful for IFR in Alpha?
You don’t need VMC to fly visual maneuvering under IFR
