Avionics company jacking up price to work with equipment purchased elsewhere

Peter
First time I bought the Garmin 430 from Mendelsohn and it was fitted by a freelance who provided very good service once it was all done. The second time I got it from the USA at a tad over dealer price and a UK shop fitted it at normal hourly rate, maybe because I asked them to also install strobes and speeds modes, all were provided by me.

Ben

When people are making loads of $$$ they are relaxed about life and are pretty casual when they get a case where they make a bit less than usual.

So for example airports which makes loads of money (bizjets, AOC ops, etc) tend to be relaxed about who does maintenance in the hangar. And similarly airports which struggle to make ends meet won’t be relaxed, especially as the based-on maintenance company/ies complain loudly whenever they see somebody getting their cowling off.

I think these issues exist because it’s not easy to make money in GA avionics. It can be OK if you are well placed on the “money stream” (e.g. a big dealer for both avionics and new aircraft) because you then get people who are writing 6 figure cheques, so they are fairly relaxed about writing a “small” 5 figure one a bit later. But most shops are carving business out of solid rock. That in turn leads not only to them being un-relaxed about free-issue hardware, etc.

As Ben points out above, some shops will do it, although IME this tends to depend on a relationship which, in this business, has usually been “purchased” via previous business with the shop.

Another factor to consider is that if you buy something in the USA, the UK end of the manufacturer is likely to refuse warranty processing. They probably do it to pacify their European dealer(s) who would otherwise complain that the manufacturer has helped somebody to cause the shop to make a bit less money. This is a totally predictable thing in any business…

Incidentally, isn’t any enforced retail price illegal in the EU? I realise GA is below the consumer protection radar, but…

Note also that some installers may quote a higher price for the hardware, if they are not an official dealer for the box(es). They then have to buy it from a dealer and add something. This is entirely legitimate, despite what some will say, unless an STC is involved which is restricted to official dealers (which some manufacturers have falsely claimed is the case). The issue you can get is that warranty processing may be limited to official dealers… it is something to check out (I don’t believe such a restriction would be legal in Europe).

This is relevant to using a freelance avionics person.

JnsV wrote:

Based on the recent Airworld UK thread I checked their prices against those quoted by the Hungarian avionics company I am in contact with. For the TT-21, the difference is huge, 20% in the net price for the total set (transponder, antenna and cables) and I could also benefit from the 20% UK VAT vs the 27% Hungarian VAT.

I hear similair complaints every now and then, when. The difference is often smaller then people say, if they would compare the same the products. Some difference will always be there.
- Did you include shipping cost when you order from the UK? Do you have to pay shipping cost at the Hungarian shop? Most avionics shop will pay the shipping cost from their margin.
- Aeroworld’s Trig come with a free cable set. I have had one customer bringing me such a set. This set was made up out of cheap computer cable. It was supplied free of charge from them, but does not meet the requirements from either Trig or CS-23. As such it might be good enough for an experimental but not for certified aircraft. I wouldn’t use it for experimental aircraft either. Hence the wiring from the Hungarian shop would be higher when they are using good grade of wiring, including shielded wiring. The same is true for the freely supplied coax cable, which is free, but of poor quality and not fit for CS-23. So good quality cable with plugs would also add up. This is not to be negative about AirWorld, I never did direct business with them, just trying to explain points to look at for a price difference. Good quality wiring will add up in parts and a lot in labour.
- Altough the VAT difference, it is not fair to complain at the shop about this, they don’t have any influence on that.

JnsV wrote:

The problem is that the Hungarian company is telling me that a 20-25% markup (based on their sale price of the device) would be due if I bring my own device, complete with all the paperwork and accessories… Is this regular practice? They listed a couple of reasons for the price difference, but most are so wild that I would not even list them here.

I do the same when people bring their own equipment, which I also sell. It is more work then when buying from “approved” suppliers. Especially 145 shops will have to do extra work if you bring your own equipment, checking certificates and checking if the certificates are real. Checking if the equipment has not been tampered with and still current.

Then there are this warranty issues, where you would always go to the installer, not the webshop. It would always be arguing who is going to pay, even with suchs an agreement you describe.

JnsV wrote:

Also, Airworld UK would ship immediately, while no one in Hungary has the TT-21 in stock, so their higher price actually represents a much longer lead time.

Several web shops offer Trig and German brands from stock. Remember they have a very limited assortment, compared to an avionics shop, where it is just not possible to have all products in stock, it would put far to much cash into that, Think of Garmin GTN’s, Avidyne IFD’s, glass cockpits etc. In many cases factory warranty starts when an avionics shop buy this equipment.
There is no reason to have stock either, as you can not have it installed the next day anyway at most shops. Most avionics shops have loaner programs instead. which is usefull as well.

JnsV wrote:

I would be absolutely happy with a prior agreement that in case of equipment malfuction I would pay for their time, if in case of an installation problem they paid for my downtime.

This is quite unreasonable, isn’t it?

Peter wrote:

The next reason shops don’t like this is that customers who are so concerned about costs are the sort of individuals who are likely going to give them a hard time. And this is how most avionics work is.

I can see what Peter means, and it is a true point. If you want lowest price you will find always better pricing then at a respectable dealer.
Those for lowest pricing will likely get:
- Not the same installation (quality or feature wise. Installing the bare miniumum is always cheaper. Using non shielded wiring is always cheaper, using PVC wiring is always cheaper, not using approvals will always be cheaper to install) I good shop wouldn’t do that.
- They will pay extra when the work has finished.

Two examples from the past.

- Customer wants ELT, Kannad ELT is more expensive then Ameri-King ELT in the US. Orderd ELT in the US (Kannad is more reliable then Ameri-King), expensive shipping due to hazardous materials, price difference gone. Found ELT programming incorrect. ELT either to return to USA (expensive) or have another shop do the reprogramming (I don’t have capability for Ameri-King as I don’t sell them). Other shop reprogrammed them, which was extra cost, as Ameri-King would change it under warranty when returned to the US. So the installation was more expensive then using a better ELT which is better supported.

- Customer wants GNS-430. Pricing in the US more attractive in the US then in Europe. Customer supplied GNS-430 comes with FAA 8130-3 as overhauled by a US shop. This is not acceptable to EASA, so requires recertification. During recertification found glideslope unserviceable, united needed repair. Either returning to US for warranty and recertifiy it again, or the Garmin flat fee repair makes it more expensive.

It seems to me that the Hungarian shop has a good vision on the market. Steering you away from the German radio brands, which have quite some issues into a quality product. Yes they want to make some money on it. Don’t forget the the average car mechanic makes more then a GA mechanic. When you bring your car to garage for maintenance you won’t bring your own oil and filters either do you?
They will also have the test equipment so they KNOW your installation is good when they send you away.

If you will need software updates for example, you could only have this done trough a dealer / installer, not trough someone selling boxes.

This should be completely illegal if the equipment was sourced from within the EU

My memory is often bad but I do have clear recollections of someone telling me they bought some avionics from the USA and could not get warranty processing done by the UK end of the US mfg. I don’t recall whether that was Garmin or somebody else.

I did once buy a couple of KC225 autopilot computers, overhauled by Honeywell USA, from the well known South East Aerospace in Florida. Then I took them to a UK avionics shop (wigglyamp’s then firm) for calibration for my plane, and they quickly found that one had a partly duff display. I then had enormous trouble getting Honeywell to agree to repairing it under the warranty which came with it, but I have to say they never said the issue was that I was in Europe (of course they were hardly going to admit to an illegal bit of restrictive practice). Eventually I pulled out a contact I had in the Czech Rep at Honeywell in their European head office and with reluctance he got them to do it (he never spoke to me again). Obviously, had I bought those boxes from a UK avionics shop, I would have simply taken them back to that shop to be fixed! I bought them at $500 each while the list price was about $10k each, but that didn’t mean I was happy to chuck one of them away…

The only actual warranty job I recall involved Castleberry Instruments in Texas who were exemplary. Other stuff I have had from the USA just worked (e.g. Sandel) which is the better option anyway

Peter wrote:

I then had enormous trouble getting Honeywell to agree to repairing it under the warranty which came with it, but I have to say they never said the issue was that I was in Europe (of course they were hardly going to admit to an illegal bit of restrictive practice).

What is it exactly that makes people believe this is illegal between the US and Europe? Perhaps under EU law you can’t deny coverage in another member state but even that should be regulated by contract no? If the warranty has geographical limits, is that really illegal?