Just a thought though: what time of day was this? I think that the Scottish Information channel 119.875 is twinned after hours with Scottish Control in which case you’d be talking to an ATCO rather than a FISO. So if you called after the hand-over (about 8 pm, I think) or if on an IFR flight plan during the day Scottish ACC had a spare ATCO to look after you, he or she would be able to offer a traffic or deconfliction service.
It was today, at 08:45 UTC. And I had filed an IR plan.
@eddsPeter wrote:
Jacko wrote: Peter, if you got anything other than a Basic service, it wasn’t from Scottish Information (119.875).
Today we got traffic service on this frequency and then we were asked to climb FL070 and got conflicting service. Everything smooth and relaxed.
That’s interesting and unusual, not least because it appears contrary to the info at page 6 of CAP 1434
Just a thought though: what time of day was this? I think that the Scottish Information channel 119.875 is twinned after hours with Scottish Control in which case you’d be talking to an ATCO rather than a FISO. So if you called after the hand-over (about 8 pm, I think) or if on an IFR flight plan during the day Scottish ACC had a spare ATCO to look after you, he or she would be able to offer a traffic or deconfliction service.
Normally, if you want a daytime radar service Scot Info will ask you to climb above FL55 or into the TMA and hand you over to Scottish Control.
During the day, when 119.875 is staffed by FISOs, they can see you on radar but aren’t authorised to offer a radar service… Unless the CAA has changed the rules without updating their 2016 published guidance.
Bathman wrote:
Also when going solo I would like to think it gives a watchful eye over them when then turn onto a heading of 030 when they should be in a heading of 330.
If the FISO/ATCO is equiped with a radar and has some spare time, maybe. But it’s not guaranteed.
The UK have the whole mess of outside controlled airspace services partially because pilots when infriging or having an Airprox remark that nobody passed warnings. The ANSP and CAA and … conclude that pilots can’t take their own responsabilities and don’t understand the system is not uniform. And so they come up with various name and various services to try to convey the differences.
I would say most instructors get their students to ask for a basic service as a learning excecise as it makes them practice their RT. Also when going solo I would like to think it gives a watchful eye over them when then turn onto a heading of 030 when they should be in a heading of 330.
Of course what would be nice if being on a basic service gave some sort of protection if one infringes as should a FMC. Say a warning letter and a learning point rather than off to GASCO but sadly that appears not to be the case.
A conflicting service? Yikes! :-)
@Jacko wrote:
Peter, if you got anything other than a Basic service, it wasn’t from Scottish Information (119.875).
Today we got traffic service on this frequency and then we were asked to climb FL070 and got conflicting service. Everything smooth and relaxed.
Please could someone tell me, in simple words, why they ever ask for a Basic Service
Probably because:
- An instructor taught them to
- An instructor did not fully understand the 4 types of FIS services used in the UK only, and
- ATC once advised a pilot to do this so they could catch and resolve infringements quicker while not having to provide traffic information
It’s a little silly because I actually would like ATC to tell me about real traffic much more so than about airspace boundaries. And that’s why if I don’t want a TS for any reason, then I monitor various frequencies and optionally file a flight plan so that someone has my details.
I don’t see the need for TS/DS on busy sunny days, next time you hear a pilot calling for it just reply keep your head outside and hope for the best :)
This report: https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/4050593/see_and_avoid_report_print.pdf local copy concludes:
The see-and-avoid principle in the absence of traffic alerts is subject to serious limitations. It is likely that the historically small number of mid-air collisions has been in a large part due to low traffic density and chance as much as the successful operation of see-and-avoid.
So on a busy sunny day:
- If I’m equipped with a traffic information display making use of ADSB-In etc., I would use that.
- I would also use a Traffic Service where available.
On sunny days, just don’t bother asking traffic service from LARS, even so most of it is irrelevant or not in frequency
On marginal days, I recall many times getting refused traffic service OCAS by LARS due to xyz while descending through broken layers still frequency was a bit busy, I only need that for 3min, so I just transmitted position reports to them while on basic service (actually to other traffic) and even I got another guy on opposite radial calling me back, I think everybody got the message…
I don’t see the need for TS/DS on busy sunny days, next time you hear a pilot calling for it just reply keep your head outside and hope for the best :)
On medium days, “a cloud frequency” may do do better than what you would get OCAS from LARS on traffic due to their limited ressources, however, on difficult days you do get a superior service from LARS and credit should be given
So to get to Timothy point you need EC, 121.5, Cloud Frequency and FMC and all class G flying gets sorted between pilots in all weather conditions !
Departing EGPE Inverness, Tower tell me to contact Radar. I do so, and if I don’t ask for a Basic Service, Radar will tell me I’m getting a Basic Service.
If I contact Scottish Information, it’s the same.
Less hassle for the “Controller” to say “requesting Basic Service” on contact or passing details.
I usually get traffic information with the basic service, especially from Inverness Radar.
Often I fly monitoring Scottish without talking to them, as I’m too low to hear the ground messages. I broadcast my position on Safetycom 135.480, and monitor it. Sometimes quite a lot of traffic on it.
The feature to monitor two frequencies on one radio is great.
PS Scottish often has difficulty understanding what I’m doing, as I’m flying around in the hills with a planned destination but not on a preplanned or direct course. And squawk changes take my eyes inside for too long.
