RobertL18C wrote:
With the modern definition of Upset being ‘an undesired aircraft state characterised by unintentional divergences from parameters normally experienced during operations’, in effect aligned with an airline SOP framework, it is strange that ICAO hasn’t sought to implement a universal framework on who assumes control in an Upset, and how this is announced and carried out.
Is that not thought in standard airline CRM courses ?..EASA has published some documents on Startle Effect Management
Very good video…..with the captain completely …startled…..F/O had to do only two things I think push priority right and pull the stick and engage TOGA mode. He clearly was mentally not prepared to override the captains authority even knowing he broke all Airline SOPs regarding circling approaches.
I think the details of the accident are better described in this video:
@Vref good reference, but I didn’t find any discussion of who takes control during an Upset, and how control passage takes place. US Air case study does have the passage of control between Skiles and Sully.
Not an expert at all but I assume its in CRM training:
GM1 ORO.FC.220&230 Operator conversion training and checking & recurrent training and
checking
UPSET PREVENTION AND RECOVERY TRAINING (UPRT) FOR COMPLEX MOTOR-POWERED AEROPLANES
The objective of the UPRT is to help flight crew acquire the required competencies in order to prevent
or recover from a developing or developed aeroplane upset. Prevention training prepares flight crew
to avoid incidents whereas recovery training prepares flight crew to prevent an accident once an upset
condition has developed.
HUMAN FACTORS
Threat and Error Management (TEM) and Crew Resource Management (CRM) principles should be
integrated into the UPRT. In particular, the surprise and startle effect, and the importance of resilience
development should be emphasised.
Training should also emphasise that an actual upset condition may expose flight crew to significant
physiological and psychological challenges, such as visual illusions, spatial disori..
Airbus has a good article on it shifting from task based to competency based approach:
https://safetyfirst.airbus.com/training-pilots-for-resilience/
@Vref A-UPRT trains for startle and surprise, possibly with slightly less resilience training these days than some historic airline cadet UPRT courses. The cadet announces the upset, calls for automatics off, and then proceeds to carry out the necessary recovery actions: with the relevant call-outs. The passage of control from instructor to cadet is implied.
My original thesis is that Part 121 appears to have clear, well inculcated conventions on CRM/Crew co-ordination in an Upset Condition, while outside the USA the practices are more varied (country to country, airline to airline). Both references, useful links nevertheless, appear to infer it is an individual airline CRM philosophy how they handle the actual crew co-ordination in an upset.
I was wondering how this might apply to single pilot scenarios and GA… there was one case of an SR22 where a passenger got scared and pulled the chute. There must have been many others which never came out.
And here’s another depressing read…
Final Report – Accident of PIA 8303 A320 AP-BLD on 22/05/2020
And here’s another depressing read…
Great educational value but unfortunately sad outcome… I read first 40 pages then skipped to end, later on I’ll go back for more details.
Interestingly the report kinda misses what I think is the key moment… the gear retraction which was performed on finals.
The crew was 100 miles behind the aircraft, and overwhelmed by all the warnings and things happening forgot they already had extended the gear on long finals. So instead of lowering the gear, it was then retracted… over the runway the captain tried to select reverse, and then applied the brakes, totally dazed and confused, believing the gear was down. Alas they were gliding on both engine’s nacelles… 😳
How is reading about continuing an unstabilised approach to a gear up landing and then go around educational.
