ENR 1.10 of Italy says that the AROs are responsible for dissemination so we assign each airport to an ARO and the rest via airspace: https://www.autorouter.eu/wiki/flight-plan-addressing/fpal-document-list (choose “li” from the list).
Italy’s AIP is very poorly done (in that regard).
tomjnx wrote:
In the AIP section ENR 1.11.
What I noticed is that not all countries publish this. If I open the Italian AIP in ENR 1.11, the page just says: See ENR 1.10
Opening ENR 1.10 doesn’t help much. It doesn’t give any address for VFR flight plans. Or am I overlooking something?
There is a standard for FPL filing in ICAO doc 4444, so we should use that?
Indeed, we have all those MTMA’s who control IFR traffic at lower levels and hence they have to be copied.
Especially LGAD MTMA controllers are extremely busy with summer charter traffic for LGRX, LGKF and LGZA
Thank you @petakas for working through our definitions and for your information!
We already had the F245 ATH TMA LGATZAZX rule, but the F195 LGATZAZV rule went through the cracks…
Anyway, I went through the TMA and TMA sector rules and made sure we have them correctly. So Greece is now the second most complex country flight plan addressing wise, only topped by france with its huge list of bria de rattachement, siv and addresses speciales table.
achimha wrote:
What did you ask EuroFPL to do in addition to what is spelled out in ENR 1.11?
I asked them this in 2009 which I don’t know if it was already in AIP ENR 1.11
LGGG AFTN additions
Hello,
I have spoken with few ATC who submit our VFR and IFR FPLs in Greece, (LGGG FIR).
Some times I get complaints when using EUROFPL because not all “regular” AFTN adresses for Greece are adressed as they say. When I queried which they mean I found the
following issues which would be nice if you could handle by default as recipients.
VFR FLIGHTS withing LGGG FIR :
(LGGG and LGMD ACC)
-LGGGYXYK must be always copied IFR & VFR LGGG FPLs.
They are the MIL radars coordination center who want to have every single CIV flight inside LGGG identified. If they see FPL missing they start calling ADEP ATC
querying about the flights etc. It is just one phone ring less for ATCos if we copy this address.
For FIS handling LGGG VFR flights, all following need to be copied:
-LGGGZFZX
-LGGGZIZX
-LGMDZFZX
-LGMDZIZX
The last two are for LGMD ACC (northern half) airspace VFR flights but best option is to copy them all if you cannot differentiate from ADEP & ADEST.
For LGAV, LGMG and LGTT airports (Athens CIV GA accessible airports) the following addresses must be copied additional to the above.
-LGATZAZV the Athens TMA dedicated FIS service who handles all Athens TMA VFR and Z & Y FPL traffic.
IFR FLIGHTS departing / arriving LGMG or LGTT
-LGATZAZV because even in I FPLs the departure is VFR and FIS handles them first
-LGAVZAZX Athens approach who handles the IFR first/last
-LGAVZAZA The planner next to Approach Radar ATCO
That’s it for now !
I have had numerous efforts in talks with ATCOs to find out why many times my EUROFPL flight plans don’t reach needed people and the above AFTN cases are what is
needed as described.
I checked now ENR 1.11 (oops I was checking GEN 1.1 before; disregard my post further up) and the ones I see missing from FPAL’s “lg” section are the following (in bold):
- ATHINAI TMA (below FL 245) LGATZAZX, LGAVZTZX, LGAVZPZX
- ATHINAI TMA (below FL 195) LGATZAZV, LGAVZTZX, LGAVZPZX
The from EuroFPL request post rest I crosschecked now with and ENR 1.11 and have changed so I don’t mention them.
What the AIP ENR 1.11 does not specify is that for IFR & VFR flights departing LGMG or LGTT IFR (V, I or Z plans) or flights arriving LGMG or LGTT (V, I or Y) LGATZAZV should always be copied since they handle these flights
Also what the AIP does not mention is that controllers like to have these ATH TMA IFR plans for pickup also sent to the planner sitting next to the radar controller.
The code is LGAVZAZA
The MIL unit I mentioned further up and you and AIP have it (and EuroFPL did not until I notified them is) LGGGYXYK
The rest you’ve got them covered.
ENR 1.11 should contain a complete list of which AFTN addresses to send flight plans to. What did you ask EuroFPL to do in addition to what is spelled out in ENR 1.11? I know that Greece until fairly recently didn’t even have an AIP but now it’s there and I hope it is complete and accurate? We implemented the Greek AIP ENR 1.11 (click on “lg”).
achimha wrote:
@petakas are you saying that Greek AIP ENR 1.11 is not correct?
What do you mean “not correct” ?
In section 1.1 (just checked) basic national authorities/institutions are mentioned, not ATC units with their AFTN addresses.
Maybe ATC units with their AFTN addresses are mentioned elsewhere.
Peter wrote:
These extra addresses are supposed to be added automatically by the tool used to file the VFR FP.Traditionally, in VFR FP addressing, you address the FP to
departure airport destination airport each FIR which you are crossingI have some background here
But there are many variations between countries.
Yes there are, for example in Greece all VFR FPLs are copied to a MIL unit that oversees all traffic in LGGG airspace whereby they have to correlate and positively identify and follow up (usually with MIL radar network or via comm’s with affected airport towers) each single flight even if flying at 50Kts and 1000ft with a squawk 7000 or even a primary radar contact only without transponder emission. This unit never communicates with pilots, only with local CIV ATC units and its on a “National Security” basis issue due to our sea border to the east …
IFR flights for them is a no brainer and no identification process is done for them but any other target unless positively identified initiates an interception procedure.
So these guys get copied the VFR FPLs too since they demand them anyway (but pilots are not involved in this).
VFR FPLs in Greece are mandatory even for the traffic pattern :-0
Another example is Athens TMA and the Z/Y/I flight plans from the two GA non instrument procedures airports (LGMG & LGTT). LGAV APP and TMA dedicated FIC are also copied since they handle these flights first for the IFR pick up. Because they belong to LGAV (AFTN wise) unless specified in recipients they will not be copied.
All this I explained to the EuroFPL team here some time ago and they implemented it soon after.
WarleyAir wrote:
ARO = Airport Reservation Office or Airport Reporting Officer ????
Sorry. “ATS Reporting Office”, or simply “briefing”.
