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PA46 Malibu N264DB missing in the English Channel

Regarding to allegations of illegal charters to/from the Channel Islands… I have been down there (Alderney) for a few days recently and spoke to some locals. The problem is that Aurigny (the “airline”) are ripping people off with something like £280 return to Southampton, or to Jersey. Jersey is the one place down there with some decent shops. So there is a strong demand for cost sharing with a private pilot, and this has always been the case, because all the “airlines” operating there have always been ripping people off. You can fly from the mainland to Turkey or even the USA for some of the figures for a 15 min flight. So now, with the famous footballer crash just down the road, the (irrelevant to that case) focus on N-regs, the alleged illegal charter involved in that flight, etc, the local CAA is watching private pilot activities. I suppose they have to find something to do; the 12hr GAR form notice has completely stopped the C.I. being the hotbed of IRA terrorism

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Given that everyone in Alderney knows everyone else, it would be very difficult to show that a flight was in breach of the (very liberal) cost-sharing provisions.

EGKB Biggin Hill

I look at the cost-sharing question the other way around.

The conditions of my licence are that I must not be paid to fly. Nowhere does it say that I must pay to fly.

Therefore I consider the neutral situation (I pay nothing and no-one pays me anything) to be perfectly fine. On a few occasions I have flown an aeroplane (for positioning) and not paid towards the cost. I don’t view this as illegal.

EGLM & EGTN

For safety, you should pay a £1.

EGKB Biggin Hill

@Graham, these are the conditions of your licence. Indeed, flying “for free” is acceptable for your licence.

However, in the OPS regulations, the “cost sharing” exception to commercial flight requires the pilot to participate in the cost sharing. Under EASA rules, it is maximum 6 people and there there is no set minimum, so formally a penny/cent will do. In Guernsey, max 4 people and the pilot must in general pay at least a prorata share of the total cost to the total number of occupants in the plane (and no advertisement, except clubhouse and then only adult members of the club and children can be passengers): section 141 of the Air Navigation (Bailiwick of Guernsey) Law, 2012.

Note that Guernsey has other exceptions than cost-sharing. E.g. an employer can reimburse complete costs to their employee, a company complete cost to its director, etc.

Let’s say that you paid the fuel of the car that got you to the airport, and this constitutes your share in the total costs of the flight…

Maybe you don’t need to pay your penny/cent/share if the owner of the plane gives you the plane and asks you to fly it (the plane is not rented), so that nobody is paid for that plane to fly. That’s more detailed a question than I have time for now :)

Last Edited by lionel at 30 Jul 16:31
ELLX

What OPS regulations? That apply to me? I’m not a commercial carrier.

It isn’t even sharing. It’s emphatically not sharing. I’m doing someone a favour by helping them solve a plane-in-wrong-place issue.

Unless someone can give me chapter and verse, I just don’t accept that there is a regulation requiring me to pay the costs (or a share thereof, however little) of any flying I do. It would be an absurd rule and completely unenforceable.

Regardless, I don’t think anyone is likely to take an interest nor be able to prove anything.

Guernsey obviously need to take a tougher line, especially on advertising. There is an inter-island airline business to protect and they don’t want that being undermined by private flights.

Last Edited by Graham at 30 Jul 16:41
EGLM & EGTN

What OPS regulations? That apply to me? I’m not a commercial carrier.

OPS, as referred to in Part-NCO (=non commercial operations).

Last Edited by boscomantico at 30 Jul 16:48
Mainz (EDFZ) & Egelsbach (EDFE), Germany

Lionel says the regs refer to a cost sharing flight, which this is not.

I believe the exception is there to legitimise money passing from passenger to pilot without it being considered a commercial flight. If no such money is passed, as in my case, I don’t believe such an exception is required (and ergo, that the pilot-share-however-small point does not apply).

EGLM & EGTN

Maybe we should review how a “commercial operation” is defined in the air ops regulation:

’commercial operation’ means any operation of an aircraft, in return for remuneration or other valuable consideration, which is available for the public or, when not made available to the public, which is performed under a contract between an operator and a customer, where the latter has no control over the operator; (Article 2, para 1d, of regulation 965/2012.)

So it seems clear that @Graham’s positioning flights are not commercial as they are not “for remuneration or other valuable consideration”. Even if Graham was paid for the flights, they would not be commercial as it is not a situation where a customer has no control over the operator. OTOH, it that case Graham would need a CPL, as a PPL is not allowed to receive remuneration – unless as an instructor (FCL.205.A).

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

It is legal for X to supply a plane to a pilot Y and pay him to fly X around in it.

Y needs a CPL (practically speaking a CPL/IR).

This is how most bizjets are flown: by a paid crew. The flight is a private flight.

It becomes a grey area if Y provides the plane.

In practice, X prob99 knows nothing about planes so Y is likely acting as an advisor on which one to get, but still X has to formally supply the plane. If Y supplies the plane then it becomes Charter and Y needs an AOC, etc.

If Y supplies the plane but no money or other valuable consideration is paid in relation to the flight, it is a private flight. You can fly anybody anywhere, and advertise it too, if you aren’t getting paid anything. Obviously if you keep doing this, the CAA won’t believe you and will one day wait for you, offload the passengers and interview them separately

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom
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