I think that icing was not an issue in this accident. From the radar track, if it is genuine, he was flying probably below cloud at around 2000 ft AMSL until he came close to the coast, where the ceiling came down to what the search helos reported. Typically, a VFR pilot scud running will try to stay visual and descend with a cloud base. The turn to the left would indicate that at some stage he realized that he could not continue towards the coast and turned back towards the sea, but apparently too late and into conditions which did not allow a continuation. Low level, with a new airplane type which is not unknown for low level stalls out of tight turns, I can sort of see a scenario here.
he told me he would only fly home after completing the ten hours of official transition training (but I cannot know what he really did).
Could anyone other than an IT (aircraft systems) anorak learn the current Cirrus avionics in 10hrs, let alone have some time flying the plane?
Peter wrote:
Cirrus avionics in 10hrs
Perspective is just a panel of buttons and a keyboard arranged to make using the G1000 a little easier. All glass share the same basic layout. If you have never used a PFD/MFD before then you will need a little more time to get used to digital and tapes versus analog and round gauges. Glass also has more functionality…flight planning, EFB, synthetic vision, moving map etc. But if you can work an iPad then you can work a G1000.
Rwy20 wrote:
If he took off on this journey because he read somewhere on the Internet (or someone had told him) that “a SR20-G3 has such exquisite avionics that will fly you through 75 percent of all weather”, that attitude may well have been the final nail in his coffin.
I understand that point that you’re trying to make. I’ve never so much as sat in a Cirrus, never mind flown one. I’ve never flow IFR, other than as a passenger with Peter on a few trips. I’m sure that if I were to get myself a Cirrus, I’d be expecting a steep learning curve to be able to fly confidently. While I’d expect that I’d be impressed with it’s capabilities, the thoughts of heading off into challenging weather when I’m still learning what knobs to turn and buttons to press wouldn’t fill me with confidence. While the sales man, friends, colleagues etc might stand there telling me “Don’t worry…this aircraft has a great autopilot. Just turn it on and tell it what you want to do…it doesn’t know about clouds!” would not be enough to persuade me to fly it into those conditions. I speak that as a VFR only pilot. So I find it hard to believe that this pilot would have placed too much confidence on any such comments that they might have read or heard.
More likely they thought that could fly below the weather and skud run, because clouds rarely go right to the ground and they really wanted to get their new toy home.
To be honest, turning the autopilot on and climbing into cloud would fill me with dread, as a VFR pilot. I think I’d much more likely try to fly below the cloud base and find a way through, knowing that I could turn back if necessary. I understand this pilot was a VFR pilot also. I’d be surprised if they placed too much faith in such comments that the read/heard elsewhere.
It might be different for someone who was a VFR pilot but very experienced with the aircraft. Then they might have much more confidence flying beyond their skills, buy using the autopilot. It might be different if the pilot had IFR skills but they had lapped or weren’t valid in the aircraft or airspace. But I don’t think that’s the case here.
dublinpilot wrote:
turning the autopilot on and climbing into cloud would fill me with dread
The autopilot is intended to offload pilot workload, not to beat weather or substitute for skill in hand flying. The autopilot fly’s better than hand flying and is great on cross-country flights. Once you have an autopilot you will never go back….
Perspective is just a panel of buttons and a keyboard arranged to make using the G1000 a little easier. All glass share the same basic layout. If you have never used a PFD/MFD before then you will need a little more time to get used to digital and tapes versus analog and round gauges. Glass also has more functionality…flight planning, EFB, synthetic vision, moving map etc. But if you can work an iPad then you can work a G1000.
That’s complete nonsense. And yes I have flown behind a G1000 – e.g. here – and I do have an Ipad.
Jesus, how can you compare avionics (and all the underlying concepts, aircraft systems knowledge and – to a US IT person – paradigms, paradigm shifts, etc) with an Ipad which is for the most part a blindingly obvious multimedia delivery device which even a 2 year old child can learn?
And in 10hrs from analog gear?
No way. If this guy had 10hrs, he would have just about known how to config the transponder code. He possibly did not understand the autopilot modes (most pilots don’t actually).
Where was this aircraft purchased from, BTW? It appears he just bought it. Was it new?
The autopilot is intended to offload pilot workload, not to beat weather or substituent for skill in hand flying. The autopilot fly’s better than hand flying and is great on cross-country flights. Once you have an autopilot you will never go back….
Very true but you need to know how to use it, and you need to know the many gotchas. For example, what happens if you are at 1000ft, you set 2000ft on the altitude preselect, and you select -500fpm for the climb rate (answer: you die 2 minutes later).
the SR20-G3 that crashed was a 2008 model equipped NOT with Perspective but with an Avidyne glass cockpit
(EXP5000 PFD, EX5000 MFD, S-TEC55X A/P, 2×GNS430W<9
This configuration (which i also have but with the newer DFC90 A/P) is MUCG (!) easier to learn than Perspective. If you are ok with the GNS430 the Avidyne cockpit is really simple. It is no problem to learn the VFR Features in 2 hours, and after one week you have absolutely no problems.
The G1000 version for the Cirrus called “Perspective”, which essentially is a G1000 with a keyboard, takes much lomger to learn. If you have not flown a glass panel plane before it will take you three times longer to fly safely (IFR!) with the Perspective. While it has many more features than the Avidyne (Synthetic Vision, announcements for TKS fluid, oxygen, hypoxia altert and, and, and) … it is really not an impressive user interface. It is like a big 430, but more complicated.
The best panel you can find in a Cirrus (if you ignore the problems they lateley had with GPS outages) is the Avidyne R9. It is an advanced version of the Entegra, and many pilots say that it’s the real star. It uses a similar UI that Avidyne now has in the IFD units. So if you have an older Avidyne Cirrus (like mine) the 2 × IFD440 will bring it one step closer towards R9. But R9 also has a better PFD and MFD, with keys for the main screens (not dials like Entegra)
All in all: I am sure that in the week of training he was safe with the Entegra. When I went to England to pick up my Cirrus from the same Airport I got an introduction from Boscomantico (who was so nice to come along!) … and I think I was pretty safe for VFR after 1.5 hours. (I hope he agrees :-) Of course I would not have flown IFR then next day when we flew it home.
I cannot imagine he stalled it in a turn. Maybe he was not experienced enough with autopilots, but if you put the S-TEC55X on HDG and and ALT it will safely fly you while you make a new plan. But we don’t know. My best guess was that he entered IMC at low level, iced up, … maybe then stalled …
USFlyer wrote:
But if you can work an iPad then you can work a G1000.
Well, sure you can, but how long does it take? I’m what Peter lovingly calls an “IT anorak” and it took me 15-20 flight hours to feel that I could master the G1000 – and I have an IR and also used a PC G1000 simulator extensively.
The problem with the G1000 is that there are so many different ways (softkeys, hardkeys, menus etc.) to activate the various functions so that it takes a while to learn exactly how to activate a specific function.
Peter wrote:
esus, how can you compare avionics
Because I have experience with the Dynon Skyview, Garmin G1000 and Perspective….And I started as a mainframe software engineer and ended my career as a chief information officer in a 90k employee multinational. I am not just an expert in IT, I was also a software engineering contractor that worked on first versions of TCP/IP, storage systems (today’s cloud computing), was Intel’s Ethernet product manager, coded for the Mac, the PC, and was an Oracle database expert.
I even worked on early computing security having created sections of the CompSec Orange book and later DoD secure networks for the battlefield.
I have been retired for 12 years and still play with the little toys from Samsung, Apple, Microsoft and now aviation goodies..
You were a software engineer, and that junk UI of the G1000 was also designed by software engineers. And obviously you don’t understand anymore how difficult this can be for beginners.
I for one worked in the computer industry since 1988, I always had tons of computers, and i still do. … But to compare an iPad with the the G1000 shows that you somehow lost connection to the outside world ;-)
It takes a long time to become a proficient and good pilot in a Cirrus and fly it IFR safely with the G1000. The Avidyne is better, but then you have to be good with the GNS430, and that takes some practice too. Are you aware that most pilots can only do a DIRECT ona GNS430? I sometimes teach other pilots (who fly my Warrior) to use the 430 and the fuel computer. And what’s “normal” for me takes them a long time to understand, let alone the autopilot modes and all the little tricks …
