Aircraft landed at Lyon Bron after ATC hours not realizing they needed LP Lvl 4. Same thing, authorities in attendance, threats of impounding of the airplane (biz jet), several hours delay in departure the next day e.t.c.
Not sure I understand this, but Lyon is an "international" airport and has Customs, so you are entitled to expect English speaking ATC.
This is not Russia, for example.
If one could not rely on ATC speaking English then international aviation in the "civilised" world would stop working immediately.
Or does Lyon state that after hours you must speak French? If so, then the pilot did not do his preflight properly (easily done...).
I can't speak French or German which is why I do not fly to non-Customs airports unless I know from a reliable source they speak English.
Oh Bugger!
I was planning a trip to Germany but this has really put me off.
What fields in Germany would be considered friendly to GA and less likely to report you to the police for minor/unintended infractions of the IFR rules etc???
Or on the other hand is Germany not really recommended for GA without IR etc...?
I was planning a trip to Germany but this has really put me off.
Germany is one of the easiest countries (maybe even the easiest) I know to fly in. We have very few deviations from ICAO standards, lots and lots of airfields of all sizes, 95 percent of which officially speak English on the radio and the other 5 percent unofficially. There is more "open FIR", i.e. airspace G and E, here than in France, UK and Italy combined (you can for example fly VFR in a straight line from Stuttgart to Hamburg at 5000ft without talking to anybody! Try that in England...).
The only important thing about here is that "officials" or people who consider themselves as such like to be treated with respect. If a security guy at an airport wants you to pull your iPad out of your backpack before putting it in his X-Ray machine then do so and the whole thing will be over in 30 seconds. Refuse (as a colleague of mine recently did) and you will not depart from that airport within the next couple of hours. And if the radio operator of some small airfield tells you that his field is closed due to low visibility then do not take off on your own, even if you think you can see enough...
MooneyDriver: If you find it boring, don't read it.
I didn't express myself well, I'm afraid. Not the whole magazine (Pilot und Flugzeug) is boring, but this continuous rant against the authorities. One or two articles every now and then (like in the AOPA magazines) are certainly OK. But there were some issues that cover-to-cover talked about nothing but "good pilots against bad ATC/DFS/LBA/...". That's a bit exaggerated in my view.
A bit like your countryman Erich von Däniken, whom I also had the pleasure to meet in person. He can be a very funny and entertaining guy telling wonderful stories about his travels all over the world, but when he starts his never ending rant against the evil and dumb scientists who do not want to accept his crazy theories it gets boring very quickly.
My feeling, from this thread, is that Germany is a place where you need to be fairly careful about who in authority you piss off.
It's the same in France.
The UK is more consistent and transparent, and (I gather from some lawyers I have spoken to) has more robust laws, developed over centuries of continuous democracy, which make it more difficult for authorities to mount frivolous prosecutions. Many years ago it was dead easy for the police to set somebody up (who pissed them off) by fabricating an offence which needs no proof other than the word of 1 policeman in a car (e.g. doing 90 in a 30 limit) and get them banned from driving for 6 months. Nowadays they don't even try it. In aviation, this is reflected in the CAA prosecutions which are mostly of fairly high profile CAS bust etc cases, plus the usual very visible cases of illegal AOC flights. Obviously if you don't take their "advice" during the interview (only an idiot would behave like that) they will throw the book at you - as anybody authority would.
I imagine that the bizjet pilots who fly "IVFR" into e.g. Egelsbach know exactly how to play the game.
I also suspect that you need to be fairly careful about arriving from the UK in a German non-Customs airport... The UK equivalent would be arriving from Germany in a UK farm strip but without a GAR form filed and if the police do turn up you will get a long "interview" and then they will go home.
There have been many reports of French, and less often but more recently German, harrassment of N-reg planes, looking for documents. With the French it was VAT documents. These reports have died down in recent years.
Erich von Däniken
Now there's a name... I found his 1st book fascinating when I was about 10-11, back in Czechoslovakia. Fascinating stuff. Only much later did I discover he made most of it up.
Or on the other hand is Germany not really recommended for GA without IR etc...?
No, Germany is very recommended for GA, you have quite a lot free airspace and you don't have to talk to anyone, if you don't want to. Many airspaces (Dortmund, Münster, Paderborn, etc.) have been de-classified from D (Non CTR) into E (Transponder Mandatory) recently, giving way for free VFR usage.
Airfield recommendations are so numerous, it depends on where in general you want to go and what you want to do. Usually, people are welcoming and nice and what is stated here is merely a distillation of a handful strange behaving individuals.
Take care of gliders, though. They can be numerous, especially beneath 1-3/8 Cu on a beautiful weekend. You can better go above if possible.
Germany is a great place to fly in my view. Far easier and better than the UK. Lots of good small airports.
ok, its back on the list, thanks for the info!
Germany is a great place to fly. So easy. Just make sure that your paperwork is in order, especially when going to an airport where you are unfamiliar with the characters.
I have said it on here before, I have had one bad experience, reported overhead a VRP, and ATC informed me that I had missed it by 1.5 NM... I said isn't overhead within 3 NM... Now if that person is on duty at the airfield, and me being easily recognisable, I do get asked for the paperwork down to weight and balance, even if I was the only person on board... But it happens at this one airport and only when this one person is on duty. But I am sure that this experience could happen anywhere, so it's not a German thing!
I find ATC in someways better than UK. Much more willing to give you what you need, and if what you want does not fit with their traffic situation, I have often receive alternative suggestions to fit; this is my normal experience when crossing Stuttgart for example! Very very good!!! In the UK my experience is that you either get what you ask or you don't, and that's it.
Also with Langen, impressed by my experiences, and also with what I have witnessed. I was flying the other weekend to Idar-Oberstein (thanks to Euroga... Excellent steaks!) and I heard a Swiss aircraft routing KRH then North-West be offered shortcut across France, without asking for it. He declined for whatever reason, but Langen responded with that it was ok, and that the coordination was there if he wanted it just call back and it was his. I find that this working together and looking for proactive solutions refreshing.
My experiences of German ATC are much better that I had been lead to believe by forum stories... Mainly on another one because this one didn't exist when I moved out here.
Peter,
went back to the original message re Lyon Bron and must admit, I mixed up two cases.
The case in Bron was one of a French citizen with mothertongue French but without the Lvl 4 in French in his license. He did speak French however during contact with ATC and was stopped after landing by the authorities asking to see his license. When it was noted that he did not have LP in French, he got detained and charged with "using the French language on the radio without license to do so". Despite the fact that he had a valid license and LP in English and Bron has English ATC, he was denied departure, so the aircraft had to be ferried out of France (Swiss register) by another Pilot who had to travel to Bron first in order to pick it up.
The case with after hours apparently happened at Dole Tavaux, where a FI and student got grounded when they arrived outside ATC hours (which they had misread). Same thing, they were both denied departure as working crew and had to organize another pilot to fly the airplane out. Apparently that instructor had done lots of flights to Dole before (it is a well known training airport for Swiss flight schools) and never had any problems. Unfortunately he has since passed away so I can't ask him anymore about this case but I knew him well enough, he was no bullshitter.
I have not heard what fines were imposed, apparently the French take their time with that, but the fact alone that you end up standed and need to organize a pilot to fly you out e.t.c. is enough for me to avoid this situation altogether and only use French airports which have english speaking ATC. Pity for the many airports which don't but the law is the law.
This is not Russia, for example
No, it's worse.
If so, then the pilot did not do his preflight properly (easily done...).
Maybe. If it is indicated properly in the charts they used, if it is properly communicated e.t.c.
And with their attitude presently, I would not be surprised if they would not accept the use of anything but the original French A.I.P where a commercial chart company might have missed this as well...
What they are doing is a nationalist kindergarten and you are very right that under these circumstances speaking of "civilized" is not really appropriate. I have heard from people within ICAO that they are less than amused about how their LP initiative is being adapted by just the places which triggered it's implementation. One guy I met at a meeting not too long ago told me that the general feeling in Montreal is that the countries who did not need it in the first place apply it to excess whereas those who were the reason for it to be imposed have lied, cheated and misused it to the point where the whole exercise is totally pointless. France, Spain and Italy (in Europe) plus several others outside were named...
