It is that difference in attitude towards ATC and CAS that I was referring to.
In the UK you tend to defer to ATS. You appear to believe that ATS are doing you a favour by clearing you through their airspace.
French pilots believe they are entitled to enter CAS unless ATC have a very good reason to refuse. They expect a good air traffic service whereas in the UK you seem to be grateful for any service you can get.
It is the surprise that he was not given a clearance to enter Class C space (possibly lacking explanation) that was the subject of this REX.
The FFA responded that this was not the first time that clearance has been refused to this particular CAS.
They basically leave it there and do not provide their normal conclusion on how this will play out in the future. I can only guess that something is going on behind the scenes so that this does not become a habit.
I think the REX gives an Idea of French ga pilot’s mindset when it comes to ATS and Peter has described the UK ga mindset. Perhaps others might describe the mindset in other European countries. Are they a service to pilots or are they the pilot police?
Peter wrote:
ATS should indeed be provided for VFR traffic in CAS but you still need a clearance to enter the said CAS to start with.
Not true for Class E.
Yes the mindset is different but “obviously” ATC are never under an obligation to offer a CAS clearance, anywhere in the world.
If such an obligation existed, there would be no need for CAS 
Whether anyone will be willing to spell this out in France, is another matter. It may not be possible to say it.
Peter wrote:
No VFR pilot can argue that he planned his flight on the assumption of a CAS transit being granted.Actually I do in quite a few countries. Best example here is Croatia, where flying is next to impossible without CAS clearance, starting with class D from 1.000 ft AGL throughout the entire country. Other examples are indeed France, but also Scandinavian countries, Austrian and Swiss CTRs etc.
Peter wrote:- Yes the mindset is different but “obviously” ATC are never under an obligation to offer a CAS clearance, anywhere in the world.
If you read the FFA summary and read a little between the lines you would see that what they are actually saying is that ATC is under an obligation to give a CAS service and that means a clearance unless there is a very good reason not to grant one.
What the FFA summary says in its fuel planning remark is very telling.
They would also normally give a guidance as to what will and should happen next. That they have not done which suggests to me they are consulting with lawyers and the DGAC.
unless there is a very good reason not to grant one.
Yeah, for sure.
Try asking for a low pass over CDG, 200ft AAL. It is only CAS, after all. Then the logic of my position becomes “crystal clear”, to use a somewhat notorious phrase
That they have not done which suggests to me they are consulting with lawyers and the DGAC.
For sure, too. There is more to that story. Could be something like the pilot gave his desired route, it included CAS, and ATC told him to proceed (which in France is by default; the word “cleared” is not normally used) and realised their mistake too late.
While everybody loves the French system, my view has always been that it is great when it all works but can severely bite the pilot in the bum when something like the above happens, because you were never “cleared” so the system can perfectly well throw you to the lions. So I quite like to record cockpit audio when down there I don’t know how the DGAC runs its busts but the UK CAA does not release ATC audio when they are busting you (so you cannot defend yourself, and the “provisional” license suspension specifically blocks any appeal) unless you give them the middle finger and drag the case to a court, which will cost you at least 4 digits and you will be grounded in the meantime, for 6-12 months.
Oh Peter you appear to have got this all wrong.
1/ no one is talking about a low pass over Roissy Charles de Gaulle. Here we are talking about being refused clearance (in French the word would be authorized although as the word clearance or authorized according to EASA phraseology regs should only be used under certain circumstances and in French this means the use of the word “approved” not go ahead).
2/ This is a report of an actual event. A pilot was refused clearance to enter or transit Class C airspace. He therefore did not enter without a clearance but published a REX.
3/ The FFA have responded by saying that this has happened several times with this particular airspace.
And that according to SERA regs there is no regulation stating that in fuel planning you should take account of being refused entry/clearance to CAS.
This in turn would suggest that yes you need approval but no it should not be witheld without good reason.
4/ I posted another report of a VFR pilot who accidentally strayed into class A airspace without clearance.
After a conversation with the chief of ATC in the area he was mandated to write the report so that others might learn. You could consider this as his sanction from the authorities responsible for ATC and the DGAC . A further sanction was imposed by the club officers in that he would not be on the list of pilots to carry out Vols de decouverte (discovery flights) on behalf of the club, at least for a while.
No being thrown to the lions, no licence withdrawal.
A low pass over Roissy CdG without a clearance would more than likely have stronger consequences.
Also Roissy (and the whole Paris area) is Class A, meaning that you’ll never get in there VFR.
@gallois – I’ve never tried flying VFR in CAS in France. My French instructors gave me the impression that it was pretty much impossible, maybe a quick skirt round the edge of a Class D but no more than that. But it seems like a good idea – most of the advantages of IFR, in particular not having to figure out complicated routes avoiding red bits. How does it work? Do you ask the SIV Info service, or do you call the “IFR” ATC service directly? But the problem is that VFR charts don’t show those frequencies.
johnh wrote:
I’ve never tried flying VFR in CAS in France. My French instructors gave me the impression that it was pretty much impossible, maybe a quick skirt round the edge of a Class D but no more than that.
That’s interesting because every one I talked to who flies to France says the contrary, that they always clear you trough everything.
I only flew one time to France so far (low time pilot, based in Sabadell, Spain). I flew from Sabadell (LELL) to Carcassonne (LFMK) and not only they cleared me trough everything, often I didn’t even have to ask. They already knew what I most likely want and after saying hello I was instantly given a new squawk and instructions on how to proceed. This includes Montpellier TMA class D.
I can only speak to my experience in the SE of France, I never flew around Paris Zones, but I have never been refused on any leg, e.g between Cannes and Montpellier VFR, and then Lyon. These are only TMA so C/D class and never been refused. Most of time it’s direct transit, sometimes dodging some place is required. Even the Salon MIl is usually granted – but you have to take the required transit.
This was the same for North-East of Italy (between Parma and Venezia), where there are mostly D and C airspace (3500-FL100), and although they make you understand you are not at your place, they grant you.
Sometimes actually, the ATC agent look at your flightplan and syncxhronize transit with the next airspace. Happen to me twice, I did direct Cannes to Montpelier at FL70 VFR, and also Valence-Montpellier direct after dodging the NPP.
The most annoying is to change squawk every 15 minutes…
What you should not expect is crossing a airport of a big airfield at less than 3500ft AAL, but in Cannes we even take UL overhead although the VAC explicitely says they cannot land – they just do a fly-by the sea.
