Thanks Snoopy. It would be great for us to read a thread about how you manage your first plane. Just updated when something happens of course :)
I’ll throw in a positive tale as well. At the start of 2020 we managed to get most of a group together, minus an aircraft. In June last year we sourced a TB10 in the UK with an almost new engine and prop, which wasn’t on the market. Mostly done remotely due to Covid restrictions.
As of last week the group is at full strength of seven. We’ve been through the first annual with no major disasters and in September the aircraft will get a a major avionics overhaul, GI275’s, Garmin Navigator, ADSB, Engine Monitor etc.
The thing is: Snoopy has been heavily involved in GA forums forums for several years before finally buying his first (very basic) plane. In that timefrmae, he also participated in seminars on airplane onwership and EASA maintenance, etc. In other words: he has a huge headstart in terms of knowledge over most other prospective aircraft owners.
So, do we say that this level of “preparation” and study is really necessary in order to buy an aircraft and not end up in tears? I think that is not a satisfactory situation, and will not help in increasing the number of (long term) and happy aircraft owners. EASA rules and their application in practice are just very complicated and tricky.
Btw, Snoopy hasn’t yet had any experience running the aircraft. Here merely bought it. Now the fun starts. As said, he is a rare, very well prepared example though. And it will be interesting to get a look back say 5 years from now.
Snoopy wrote:
IMHO Part-ML, quick/inexpensive approval of minor things using FAA STC data directly with EASA, CS-STAN, blanket approval of FAA STC AMLs, owner acceptance of components, declared AMP and owner pilot maintenance etc… are good developments in EASA land.Yes, it was screwed up years ago by throwing the Part-M blanket over all little planes in the first place, but it is fixed now and getting better still. Looks like soon an Engine monitor can be „CS-STANed“ without STC, for instance. It’ll take some time for younger folks to come in and live the change as well, while others, including those earning their living as mechanics, might stay set in their ways („Bla bla according to Law/Rule/Story dated 1996 you need to
have an autopilot for IFR
throw that prop away after 6 years
overhaul that engine every 12 years
maintain your plane like an Airbus if you lease it to a club with a DTO
know that buying a plane from XYZ EASA country is a nightmare to register in ZYX EASA country
maintain your plane like this in France, and like that in Germany, and forget about it in Italy…
get everything, especially the
holy grail of AMPs approved by the authority if you deviate an inch from the DAH instructions
budget the purchase price once more for maintenance, you’ll see
get your ARC from the authority because Part-66 is something FAA only, and 145 will make you pay Jetplane prices
be careful, every shop is out to milk you
do the 50hr inspection at Luxury Service Center or it won’t count much for resale
etc…“
Indeed, it seemed like a lot of hassle to own a certified IFR aircraft in the old days under national rules? I am not even sure how that was managed back then? before Part-M introducing “owner maintenance” (let’s not even mention Part-ML), you can’t change tires on C172 or ASK21 even under “no public transport” !!!
Of course there is N-reg which offer more maintenance benefits but it’s oversold in the big scheme of things
The problem is load of EASA-reg shops that are being way down on quality & way more on paperwork
LAA & PtF and FAA & N-reg do give control to owners, without reducing standards !
I am sure Part-ML & EASA-reg still has lot to give to get there, but it’s a good start
Whiskey_Bravo wrote:
I’ll throw in a positive tale as well. At the start of 2020 we managed to get most of a group together, minus an aircraft. In June last year we sourced a TB10 in the UK with an almost new engine and prop, which wasn’t on the market. Mostly done remotely due to Covid restrictions.As of last week the group is at full strength of seven. We’ve been through the first annual with no major disasters and in September the aircraft will get a a major avionics overhaul, GI275’s, Garmin Navigator, ADSB, Engine Monitor etc.
Thanks for the positive note and good luck that beauty, it looks gorgeous, hopefully flying all over the place in the summer !!
boscomantico wrote:
he has a huge headstart in terms of knowledge over most other prospective aircraft owners
And this is necessary for anything more capable than a microlight. In Germany, if you just want to fly, go for a microlight, maintenance and annuals are just so easy.
But for a certified aircraft, you either be ahead of your aircraft and mechanic, or you have quite some chances to get caught by either one. It is just sooooooo easy to find a 30k Euro trap on an aircraft if you have no idea of what is going on. And this may turn out highly frustrating, much more so than for a car.
So you either have the money to have it done and enough trust to say that it’s done in your interest. Or you bring in knowledge and start to manage the things on your own, but this involves a lot of time and dedication.
I started with a lot of knowledge, too, and a highly settled flying background. Without that, I would never have bought an IFR equipped plane of the age of my Comanche. And I do have an addiction to check the things on my own, so that I KNOW and have seen myself that all is fine. I also think that I have enough skills to have the maintenance done right. Maybe once I’ve found someone to trust enough this may change, but I know how to do it and can learn whatever necessary.
I don’t mean to slow down the good intention here. But this has to be said. It is not like: Go ahead, by your plane and all will be fine. It is a big invest and you should make your mind clear in the beginning, that it may happen that you have to write off the whole investment and let the plane go. (at least with older planes, where a new engine typically comes close to sales prices for that type). There may be lifetime limited parts on that plane, or parts which are impossible to find, and stuff like this. You can learn about that in advance – but again necessitating quite some time to read and understand.
By the way, there are possibilities to learn the stuff “on the way”. You can help with the annuals, and there are mechanics whom you can ask for help if you’re doing it yourself. So if you’re going to start without all the money and knowledge, a good starting point could in fact be the local maintenance shop and/or a mechanic to discuss on how you could manage all this together. Because in the end, it’s the maintenance and overhauls which kills you on the way of owning a plane.
But in the end, typically all maintenance can be done by anyone with an understanding for such things.
Congrats on the TB10! Same paint scheme as ours!
Snoopy wrote:
You get what you pay for, it’s worth what it costs and you need to be able to afford it, but remember there’s no free lunch ;)
LOL, well, actually, some free lunches was what I sometimes get for helping people along the way. Other than that, I never have asked money for my “work” to help people into ownership. Some have tipped me but that was about it. And that is fine with me: I do what I do because I love aviation and I am a convinced and dedicated owner on and off for over 30 years.
Sometimes it is a bit like the work I used to do for the church or as an instructor for computer pilots. I try to spread the “gospel” of whatever I like with the renumeration to see other people opening up to it and maybe dare take the step themselves. With ownership, it is sometimes really an act of faith and of dispelling often malvolent rumours spread by envious people who never got there themselves.
And no, it is not about painting ownership with a pink paintbrush, it is, as almost all teaching of sorts, to actually take a bucket or five of water and clean up the mud.
I fully agree with Snoopy. There are quite a lot of OWT‘s floating around. Of course there are cases where things simply go wrong. My experience when buying my C175 (from 1959) in 1996 was a positive one. The seller was a honest guy, the state of the aircraft was transparent and the logs complete.
I went through all the iterations with introducing EASA rules. New legal requirements (Mode-S-Tpx, ELT, 8.33 com) made it necessary to defer constantly „nice to have“ planned upgrades like avionics or a new paint job. On the other hand I wrote the maintenance program by myself even if I am not interested in the details of the maintenance of my airplane. This maintenance program is now, years later, still in use – and the airplane can legally operated IFR.
My mechanic does not operate as a CAMO, but anyways points out to me at the annual what might become due next year. This makes planning ahead (finance and scheduling wise) a lot easier.
OK let’s share positive experience. First aircraft was an MEP with run out engines, missing logs and 1970’s avionics. I used the aircraft for business in Europe and maintained it to a good practical standard: over time Norvic engine OH, boots, paint, and stuck with the avionics. Ten years of reasonably dependable travel, a loose exhaust on run up at Barajas, a failed starter at Padova. Sold it cheap relative to today’s prices. The airframe was zinc chromate anti corrosion primer. For the first seven years economically viable, in particular as parking charges in Italy at the time were negligible (it lived under the wing of Berlusconi’s BBJ), and also airways charges were reasonable. At the end no longer viable, and probably costing as much as a JetProp to run per hour. No pre buy, just bought it cheap.
Second aircraft was an abandoned PA-18, again bought cheap and over time engine OH and progressive fabric renewal. Flew hundreds of hours in it at very low expense. Sold it last summer for fair value in my view, perhaps a few AMU cheap, but glad it went to a classic farm strip and hangar home. No pre buy, missing logs.
Third aircraft and current steed was also out in the weeds out of annual and engine out of calendar. Bought cheap and another Norvic OH, and leased to a flying club. No pre buy, and initially missing logs, but the original USA logs were found. Until last year it had paid itself off, owed me no money, and has probably trebled in value since I bought it. Just had a nice big inspection to ensure all SBs and ADs have been complied with. Absolutely no corrosion, but needed a new propeller (it had the original propeller which had reached BER toothpick status – ie not meeting minimum ‘meat’ dimensions) and new exhaust. Also requested that the wing spar and fuel tank get zinc chromate and the airframe treated with ACF50. I also had to import an OH servo trim (at 40% of cost in the UK). Out of gratitude to faithful service it will be hangared from now on, and used for private use. It’s waiting for new interior trim, the interior trim man being a bit of a guru, the wait has been a bit longer than I would like (his day job is F1 teams and antique classic cars), but I know the scottish carpet and hide (with airworthiness certificates) has been ordered.
So my three aircraft have provided over 1500 hours of good service with no major problems. The MEP was not cheap to run but for most of my ownership it was a business asset. The simple SEPs have worked out cost effective, and the Warrior has been profitable after tax.
Let’s however not be polyanna-ish, owning and maintaining certified aircraft has become more complicated unless you go down the Permit route in the UK. The new maintenance programs for private owners give more leeway for on condition components, but this requires knowledge and trust in understanding the parameters where on condition is acceptable. As @Boscomantico points out, we need to understand ownership over a reasonable cycle.
To @Snoopy the interior trim, recent airframe close inspection, and some planned avionics work will come to around 12 AMU, with the most expensive item the new propeller. This is a significant proportion of the acquisition cost (more than 50%), but a fraction of current fair value.
I bought a TB21 from 89, 6 years ago and it’s been an excellent aircraft. I might have put too many upgrades into it but that’s a choice I made -it’s the flexibility ownership gives you. I still would take it any day over a newer but less capable plane for my use. It’s the choice most of us face for a given budget. Some might find a different balance on this, but there is no reason to get scared of ownership or used planes by default. For sure proper preparation, expectation and knowledge is needed or else it can turn into a major headache. Its not like buying a used car. The traps can be much bigger (expensive) in planes. Before purchase of used aircraft have the plane checked out to a reasonable level. If you do not have the knowledge team up with somebody that does. I might have a headstart in this game since I already had experience from building and maintaining an RV8 myself. But in any case, chances of “success” are much greater if one is taking active part in the ownership. Find a mechanic you trust and spend time and energy in the maintainance process on the level your comfortable with. Have a financial buffer over the purchase cost for unforeseen issues – expect some along the way especially in the beginning with used aircraft. The fruit of all of this can be the great many advantages of ownership including a safety advantage too by knowing a plane well both in operations and maintenance. Owning a plane is not for all for many reasons and some are better off with a group, club plane or renting.
